Taken from Maddox’s page, the best in the Universe, this article nicely summarizes the growing divide between police and community. Personally, every time I see a blue stripe, window badge, or PBA card displayed in an illegally parked car, I think less of cops. Every time I see an unmarked cop car going 90 with the lights off, I think less of cops. Every time I see officers flicking their ASPs like they’re going to put someone in a coma, same. I’m sure the all black tacticool uniforms are a blast to mince around in and do a great job of intimidating violent criminals, but cops are peace officers, the gun, law, and endless backup are enough intimidation without having to play Berlin 1944 dress up. Bring back sky blue and khaki, wearing black is not a public service.
To the cops, you already have our money, you can’t demand our respect. If you want to be seen more as heroes and less as the guys who have kicked people into ovens throughout history, drop the thin blue line mentality and get back in touch with real people.
I tell any of my friends looking into law enforcement, become a fireman. You’ll get right with god, trading a career full of “goddamnit” for one full of “thank god.”
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=message_to_cops
“A message to cops.”
The point of this article isn’t to judge whether cops are justified in doing what they do. This article has nothing to do with police training. And this isn’t just about American cops. This is about the perception that we, the public, have of you when you perform the following actions. It doesn’t matter if you disagree with these perceptions, because right or wrong, they exist. The point of this article is to simply let you know that we’re watching, and this is how we see things.
1. When ten of you show up to make one arrest, it makes you look like cowards.
On my way home from a bike ride a few weeks ago, I saw three arrests being made in under an hour in a relatively safe part of the city. At one of the incidents, eight police cruisers responded to make one arrest. The guy who was arrested was ejected for being too drunk in a bar. Just one guy, and he was drunk. He had a stupid moustache, hadn’t hurt anyone and was drunkenly walking home when he was tased and tackled by 3 cops before 6 police cruisers showed up in addition to the two that were there, for a total of 8 cruisers and 10 cops. The man was unarmed.
How much backup do you need? It’s one guy. If you can’t handle one drunk guy by yourself, you shouldn’t be a cop. Training tells you otherwise? Well stop being trained by pussies.
2. When you tase somebody who isn’t trying to escape, it makes you look like lazy cowards.
A taser isn’t a remote-control for people. Want to talk to someone? Then walk over to them and talk. Don’t tase them and expect them to cooperate. Also, when someone is being tased and is writhing in cardiac arrest on the ground, they aren’t “resisting arrest” by not getting on their knees and neatly kowtowing to your demands. They’re incapacitated. You look like idiots barking orders at them when they can’t move.
Being a cop has certain risks associated with it. If you aren’t comfortable with those risks, don’t take the job. Always trying to minimize your risk of injury at the expense of others by being a tase-happy dipshit makes you look like lazy pussies.
Tasing everyone you see because they might pose a risk to you is like spraying everything with a fire extinguisher so it doesn’t catch fire. Part of the problem might be that many cops are overweight and out of shape. If you fatasses can’t chase someone down, then you shouldn’t be cops. Studies have shown that not being a lardass is just as effective as using a taser.
3. When you set up speed traps, it makes you look like you don’t have anything better to do.
I get happy every time I see a speed trap, because I assume it means all criminals have been locked up, you’ve caught the guys who broke into my car on three separate occasions and my stolen property will be returned shortly, right shitheads? Good job guys, take a break and make some scratch for the city. Because why the hell else would you be sitting on your ass in a ditch if that wasn’t the case?
People who speed are awesome. The last thing this world needs is more slow drivers. Traffic jams occur because of idiots braking prematurely.
And when you pull people over, how about doing it in a place that doesn’t obstruct traffic? You know what’s just as “unsafe” as speeding? Having to swerve into another lane because your stupid car is blocking traffic. Every time I pass another cruiser parked in two lanes, backing up traffic for miles, it makes me punch myself in the jaw until I pass out.
4. When you give out chicken-shit tickets for rolling through stop-signs at 3 AM, or closing down lemonade stands, it makes us think you’re morons.
We know that “the law is the law.” We also know that you’re not instruction-executing robotic morons. When you harass us with bullshit fees and fines, it makes us question your judgement. We know that this kind of shit is all about money:
The legal age for entering into contract in the United States is 18. So that effort to charge them fees by making them apply for a permit? Illegal. Law is the law, right? Arrest yourselves. And speaking of nepotism…
5. We know you guys use the buddy system to get out of speeding tickets. And it pisses us off.
Cops have a code that basically amounts to always letting fellow cops go. When a cop pulls over an off-duty officer, the officer who was pulled over discreetly flashes his badge to let him know that he’s on the force, and he’s simply let go. You think we don’t know what’s going on, assholes? It’s a courtesy not extended to anyone else, lest the officer is having a particularly good day and isn’t PMSing all over the highway.
Sometimes you write tickets for going 1 over the speed limit, sometimes it’s 10. Then when you get called on doing something stupid like writing a ticket to someone for a law that shouldn’t be enforced and rarely is (like jay-walking in New York), you hide behind your tired mantra that it’s the law and that you have to be consistent. Except when you aren’t.
6. When you flash your lights just to get through intersections, you look like assholes.
I’ve followed cops who’ve done this, only to see them park their cruisers for coffee or lunch. And speaking of lunch…
7. When you park in a red zone to eat, it makes you look like lazy assholes.
The argument can be made that police officers need to be near their cruisers at all times in case of an emergency. Fine, but that doesn’t entitle you to eat at the most popular restaurants. If you want to eat at some trendy restaurant, park at a meter and pay, like everyone else. Can’t find a meter? Tough shit, go someplace else. Doctors, surgeons, rescue workers and security all have important jobs where people’s lives are at stake, and you don’t see their cars popped up on the curb, obstructing traffic and parked illegally so they can fill their fat faces with lunch. We know you’ll never get written a ticket (see #5), it pisses us off, and it makes us trust you less, and cooperate less.
Now this is the part of the article where I say “I know that police officers have a tough job,” but they don’t. Being a cop isn’t hard, it’s dangerous. There’s a difference. Being an engineer, teacher or airline pilot is hard. Being a logger, deep sea crab fisher, coal miner or firefighter is hard and dangerous. Being a cop is dangerous, but usually not hard. Driving around, issuing chicken-shit tickets and filling out paperwork isn’t hard, it’s annoying.
This is also the part where I say “now I know that most cops are good,” but I don’t. I only know two cops in real life, and they’re both badass, but so is anyone I choose to call my friend. Most cops I see abuse their power every day by parking illegally, talking on their cellphones while driving, drifting in and out of lanes without turn signals, flashing their lights to get out of intersections and power tripping like crazy. If you’re a cop who’s reading this, rather than being butt-hurt by people’s perceptions of you, do something to change it. Write a fellow officer a ticket. Stick your neck out for us, rather than your colleague for a change. Do the right thing. We notice.
And as for us: record cops. Record them all the time. Record them even if they’re not doing anything. Cops are cracking down on this and they’re trying to change the laws to make it illegal so they can’t be held accountable for breaking the law. They look up your plates every time they’re behind you at a stop, even if you haven’t done anything, just to check up on you. It’s time we started checking up on them.”
- Der Bular
This post was submitted using CopBlock.org’s submission tab.
AWESOME article! Cue the “we only do what we’re told, go vote for different people and hope to get your rights back before we find you and kick you into an oven” responses…
Aww, poor baby, just discovering life isn’t fair are we??
:(
Priceless, that was great!
Life isn’t fair, but eternity is just…and it is coming for you.
Agree with most of this but I have a different opinion regarding the “rolling-through-stop-sign” tickets at 3 AM. My brother was killed two years ago and the cops caught the dude because he didnt signal for a turn. I know this is going to draw all kinds of shit on here but brought my family some peace. All thanks to a turn signal ticket.
@ Common Sense, you have none. Badgelicking isn’t flattering behavior.
blah blah blah, this website is like ‘the View’ for people afraid of the police.
@Common Sense- And yet you comment on every article.
The DOW is over 13000, we’ll all relaxing and enjoying…
@Ronnell: “The Ends justify the Means”? That’s your argument? Sure you don’t want to think that one through even just a little bit more? Sheesh…
Who really give a flying fuck what you think about Police officers you hippie doucebag.
@Sheldon, take it easy my fellow hippie douchebag, you cared enough to comment. Coming here is inadvisable if you can’t grow thicker skin.
1. No one has a crystal ball to see how a suspect is going to react when arrested. I would rather have 10 cops there and nothing happen, that 1 cop injured or dead cause the bad guy decided to fight and won.
2. So a guy holding a knife threatening to stab me should be tasered unless he tries to run away??? Cheap shot I know. And I could point out several video’s of where cops shouldn’t have used the taser. Question.. how many people have been tasered, and how many “cop shouldn’t have tasered” stories are their out there??? I’ll give you 1 answer. approaching 2 million.
3. At 7:30 in the morning i really don’t have anything better to do that sit and run radar in front of the elementary school.
4. your right, to a point. I think it’s stupid for cops to shut down a lemonade stand run by a 9 year old. But then again we’ve seen them shut down the “protest” lemonade stand in DC, which violated Peddler laws(or what ever they are called) that have been arround for decades.
As for the 3Am stop sign. We’ve got one in my city that I sit on every weekend night. Produces at least 1 drunk. Unless someone completely runs it(which they are normally drunk) I don’t cite. We also have at least 2 really bad accidents there a year.
5. Been years since I’ve gotten a ticket, although I’m not a big speeder. Ohio State Troopers write everyone :) I also write 1 out of 5 people a ticket as well. so 4 people normally get off on a warning.
6. I’ve heard this story several times, and it always sound’s exactly the same. so I’m not sure if it happened once and has been repeated over and over again as if it was a new story. We do this often. A variety of calls results in a variety of responses.
7. really can’t comment on this one, we don’t have meters and I pack a lunch. When I do go out, I can always find a parking spot. And to expand on that, the majority of large cities have meters, but the majority of cops don’t work there.
Everyone of these examples are very good!!! And a good reason to be annoyed with your local PD if they are guilty of all of these. But to hold every cop accountable for these is a bit of a stretch IMO. Are you going to believe your kid’s 3rd grade teacher is a molester because onthe news last night they had a story about a 3rd grade teacher touching kids 300 miles away from you? no. So when you see a vid about a NY cop doing something, why is it OK to assume that a FL or NM cop would be doing the same, or even other cops in NY for that matter.
I say hold cops accountable for thier individual actions, but blanketing 750,000 people based on a story here n there is wrong.
just my 2 cents.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE!!! Two thumbs-up from beginning to end…
I DID like the part where those assholes COPS need A DOZEN of squad cars and 20 cops to “subdue” a unharmed drunk man.
I’ve seen that in our neighborhood and it’s frankly RIDICULOUS.
IF you are a COP, just don’t be a PUSSY…Like the article says: (quoting):
“How much backup do you need? It’s one guy. If you can’t handle one drunk guy by yourself, you shouldn’t be a cop.”
The part about indiscriminately TASING people is also a sad true.
All in all, excellent article. Good for a copy/paste and saving for future reference.
Carlos
@PSOSGT :
So PSOSGT , you’re also a PUSSY. If you need 20 backup buddies to subdue an unarmed man, then…well, you know; You should rethink being a Cop… If you can’t take the HEAT, get the hell out of the kitchen. Be something else [a Wal*Mart greeter, perhaps], NOT a cop.
In regards to TASING people, check out at CNN.com where a woman is now brain-dead as a consequence of one of your buddies teasing her.
Who is going to compensate this woman and/or her family?
Frigging PIGS!
Guess’in that she shouldn’t have taken off from the police station, or been high on cocaine and oxycontin. If she kept her happy ass in the seat after she’d been arrested, he’d wouldn’t be a turnip now would she? Sucks to be her.
I don’t know if the majority of you can handle the clip, or if you’ll even watch it. But, I feel obliged to post the link in the hope some of you will and see yet again the government you’ve been cursed with that will NOT be toppled w/o bloodshed thanks to the cops that continue to run interference for them. Hopefully, when they complete the privatization of “law enforcement” we’ll see a drastic and comedic change…..No, there’ll still be thugs running interference for the whores in government….but the newly unemployed/homeless cuz they couldn’t make their mortgage on 1/2 wages, sycophants-in-blue will be on the RIGHT side of the barricades. However, as usual, they’ll be useless and too late.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suJCvkazrTc
Damn commonsence, pretty thuggish…
@ Carlos. I like how it goes from 10 to 20 cops. But let’s take the story given. ANY police department is going to send at least 2 cops to an unwanted call. As for what happened afterwards, sounds like he fought, which resulted in more cops showing up. You simply can’t paint a broad brush over this stuff. I don’t have xray vision, so I can’t tell if someone has a weapon or not…. simply throwing that information out there that is found out AFTER he’s arrested doesn’t count. NOR is there any info on what happened in the bar.
And for tasering… guess you missed the part where I said I could find a bunch of vid’s where cops shouldn’t have tasered. Why don’t YOU check out some vid’s where cops could have(and should have shot someone) but used a taser instead and that person is alive bc of it… Naaaaa that would be good police work and your google browser probably prevents such a search. I tasered a guy who was in the process of trying to kill himself. Ended up with 130 stitches in his arms, but he lived. Without a taser….would you go hands on with a guy, covered in blood holding an 5 inch steak knife??
@PSOGST – I really appreciate your respectfully giving your two cents here. Agreed there’s no black/ white on many of these, and I don’t agree with you on a few details, but the article is more about describing a popular image from a pattern of behavior. However, if one teacher molested a member of my family and had it buried by colleagues, I would definitely have issues with teachers for a while, or any other job for that matter.
One bad encounter with an armed man is going to be more memorable than a dozen good ones, and we’re going to lump you guys in with any other agent of the state that gropes our wives at the airport or slaps us with fines at home.
@Common, you never contribute anything of value, why do you waste your time?
Couple of years ago wife noticed a BPD car with a ticket on it.
So i took a few pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cemental/3637716367/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cemental/3637716293/in/photostream/
It’s not a waste, I really enjoy reading the comments as well as watching Copblock on YT. It’s like insight into those people who camped out at Ziccotti park and basically got in everyone’s way, they were just missing the tin cup.
Then you toss in the uber-liberals from the NH and they are cross between a Bigfoot hunter and conspiracy “the moon landings were fake” nutter.
@ Deri, you right. “distorted” I like that word. Can’t remember who did the study or where to even find it. And I can’t give specific numbers but a study was done in reference to knews stories about police officers. Taser’s was one of the categories. The study found that for a “good” tasering where we all would agree that someone should’ve been taser was 8 articles about the incident. When you add in the local papers, news channels n stuff, maybe a blog entry. When a tasering was considered questionable or wrong, the number swelled to like 1700 or 1500. Something huge close to that. So what information is being distorted and by whom? Everyone can probably remember the the Midway Police department shutting down a lemonade stand. Yahoo search for “Midway Georgia shut down lemonade stand” results are 2,040,000 hits. 2 million hits for 1 incident. Now let’s pick another story. “Chaska Police Officer Saves Life Of Choking Toddler” this one you get 51,000 hits. So what kind of story to people write or talk about more. This isn’t always the case. But the media is more often the “enemy” of a positive police perception. And the sad part is, it’s our fault not thiers. PD’s seldomly contact the news about the good stuff we do. Normally it’s the rumor mill that gets around to the media and they knock on our door about a cop screwing up.
The “pattern of behavior” in my opinion is the distorted truth here. I will NEVER deny that cops don’t fuck up, nor that we don’t have any cops that are simply bad and need to go away. But when you truly looking into the matter(using actual stats and figures, not stories or perceptions base on what is on the news), cops are alot better than what many people think.
@Common, you never contribute anything of value, why do you waste your time?
@Deri Bular:
Honestly, I do not think PSOSGT, Mr. “T”, “Common” and other Cops and Badge-Lickers come here to…“contribute” or enlighten us with their “knowledge”.
I do think they come here and make posts to JUSTIFY their actions and their buddies’ and, to spoil whatever information we post here, and also [why not?] to monitor the forum so any post they deem “suspicious”, we would have the FBI and DHS knocking down at our doors.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Carlos
Now let me get this straight. If I decide to handle said drunk by myself, and he starts fighting, and I have then really fight him and probably hurt him, you would think is better? That is what you said above.
The taser thing is really misunderstood. Yes it hurts like hell. For 5 seconds. Tackled and rammed into the ground face, arms, knees first, hurts for much, much longer. I’ve tasted more people than anyone else in my depart,went. Not really proud of that, it not embarrassed about it either. None of those people had any lasting injury. Back before the taser, lots of people gotlots of lasting injuries, even the cops got hurt more (wasting your tax dollars , sitting at home).
Guess you have to explain what a “speed trap” is. Most of the radar run by my department arespecific complaints by area residents.
Chicken shit stop sign tickets. Well, if it was really so safe for you to just roll through because if you saw someone coming you could quickly stop….why didn’t you see the officer?
I don’t really write to many ttraffic tickets to anyone, so I really can’t comment.
As for the flashing lights at intersections, you just don’t know. People see the red or blue lights and go crazy. That slam on brakes and stop. The pull to the left instead of the right. Is crazy. It’s generally safer to run with the lights off because people don’t do stupid stuff. Sorry, but that’s the way it works.
I actually got a parking ticket (on my patrol car) which w parked near a crosswalk while I was responding to a robbery. Was crazy. Can’t say I’ve ever seen this, but there maybe more too it. I don’t know.
But over all, this is just misinformed crap. Everything’ isn’t always what it looks like. That is frequently ore to the story.
@ Common Sense, PSOSGT and t.
I think it’s good that LEOs participate and share their views and opinions here as long both sides are respectful to each other and not talking down at each other (surely possible).
I “rarely” see any of the LEOs admit here that there are problems of excessive force and other problems done by some of their LEO colleagues as seen in a few legitimate videos here and on the daily collection of reports on injusticeeverywhere.com
In his post above, PSOSGT does admit and points out that he does not deny that police do make mistakes, which is a start.
Yes, there are people here that are very angry at LEOs because of the lack of accountability for those LEOs who break the law and mostly get away with just a few days suspensions, if anything at all.
You also have to admit, that there is a problem with militarizing police in America.
If this militarization continues, might as well save the city money in salaries and pensions by just calling in the regular army to occupy and patrol the city….what would constitute a difference between a militarized police and army at that point?
Just my 2 cents worth..
You couldn’t convince a soldier to do a cop’s job. Rousting unarmed people for possession of a plant, then throwing them into a dungeon seems pointless. There are real bad guys out there.
Just thought of something. We used to play cops and robbers as kids, those of us old enough to remember those simpler times. Cops were chasing bad guys, dangerous bad guys.
Imagine now, playing steroid bulked up riot cop vs 130 lb protestor. Or having it be a team of 15 kids on one side as the SWAT team, vs one sleepy former Marine ready to be riddled with bullets for having the misfortune of being a scary brown Hispanic person.
Couldn’t do cops and robbers today.
@Old Man
Your “two cents” means alot. There continues to be a kind of denial or two-stepping of what I feel is the KEY issue. These random instances show a definite problem with our mil…oops, our cop shops. But the most dark and insidious portion of the problem is their mindless willingness to commit acts of treason against what they should feel are their fellow citizens’ constitutional right to dissent when they feel their “leaders” have/are/will sell them out!
I haven’t been blindly patriotic for decades but in the last 12 years I have become convinced that this “government” is despotic, to not only the world, but their own people! This has worked,(for them),since at least the ’60′s when cops were caught RED HANDED acting in a criminal capacity, covertly committing illegal acts to besmirch protestors that were trying to bring to light the illegal/corrupt “war” in Vietnam, so the swine could crush and stop their efforts. Then, (as now), it was awe inspiring to see the number of authoritarians that attacked those trying to bring “our boys” home. Forgive me if I gloat when I say they were later found to be RIGHT! The Gulf of Tonkin “incident” was proven to be a fabrication to enrich the FED RES cabal and Wall Street, nothing more. Did anyone, (especially cops), learn from any of it? Nah!
Now, we all know the treasonous Supreme Court gifted the corporations with “citizen’s rights” over 100 years ago….Are any of you aware that 2 years ago they removed all constraints re: corporate spending to get “their boy” elected to office? Or that our “Democratic” government had removed Posse Comitatus? and the final treasonous act, that will go into effect in less than three weeks, the National Defense Authorization Act? Have any of you the FAINTEST idea what the ramifications of THOSE “laws” are?! Can any of you tell me WHY a true Democratic Republic’s (mostly) elected government would think they NEED laws like those and then would not only PASS these but pass them with almost 100% backing?? You are witnessing the destruction of your Constitution and Bill of Rights and not only are most of you NOT aware of it,…there are cross sections of our society that are DEFENDING those guilty of committing these acts!
A man, “Jay” Gould, considered to be the most cruel and despotic “robber baron” in this nation’s checkered history was quoted saying, (may not be verbatum, but the core of his meaning is intact), “I can hire one-half of the poor to kill the other half”. Now, really folks, whom would you call the “one-half” and the “other half”?
@Ronnell, your post doesn’t mean shit without some more details. There is no connection between your brother being killed and some guy not signalling for a turn.
This web site does a great job reporting on things that people should know about the police and other authorities. If the courts were actually more concerned about being neutral and actually judging the two sides, rather than automatically siding with the police, we might not need as much exposure.
But there are numerous comments which indicate that a number of people think something needs to be done. Well, complaining or opining here isn’t going to do much of anything. The average citizen can actually do something about it. Watch your local, county, and state budgets and funding of the courts and law enforcement. When they asking for more money – get involved. Try to get the budget or expenditure reduced or eliminated. We do actually control the purse strings.
I saw lots of videos from Iraq and Iran of soldiers ‘just following orders, whole platoons of them..” Blowing up houses, firing machine guns and cannons, bombing the shit outa this and that….
And as far as the ex-marine who was shot, he had the rifle, and the whole “he just woke up and was scared” doesn’t cut it. I read the affidavit for HIS residence. He was a drug runner, didn’t want to go to prison and got shot, even chanted “I’ve got something for you” when the police came. “His rifle was on ‘safe’” Guess he didn’t do well under stress. He had bullet proof vests and a stolen shotgun in his house, and amazing enough, during a raid in 2009, was also in the same house with people who just dropped off 1000 lbs of marijuana and, damn the luck, was stopped by the police in 2009 and had marijuana and a pistol in his car as well…amazing his bad luck huh?
Sorry, pick another martyr.
Ah yes, you can wish for the police to be killed on this site, but my comments need to be proof read.
2nd time Copblock has restricted my 1st Amendment.
David, there is a difference in having freedom of speech in public places and being moderated (for spam reasons on a private blog). I think you’re smart enough to understand this. Or you’re simply digging deep to find flaws with those who share content here. What? Did YouTube stop you from commenting? – Ademo
@old man : Cops do make mistakes. I make mistakes. That is why the system is there to allow the courts to here it in the cooler light of day. The problems come when YOU and yours want to fight it out on the street, and forego court. Again, we the cops make mistakes. How about you and yours?? Never the first call for accountability or acting responsibly out of your camp. With so many here it is simply about loving there dope and having been caught with it at some point in the past. OK. Now there is a war at the cops for your choice to have done something that is currently against the law. Ok
Common Sense,
What is the mission to Iran called? Operation The Poster Called Common Sense can’t tell the difference between Iran and Afghanistan?
And if they dropped off 1/2 a ton of marijuana at his house, why was he NEVER in court, never charged? Ditto for the traffic stop. Cops stop people all of the time for bullshit they cannot support. Proof would be jail time, or at least a court date. No follow up, no conviction means not a fucking thing. If they had the goods he would have been in one of their dungeons. I call bullshit.
Gunned down because a stupid cop tripped, and they thought he had been shot. 70+ rounds, left to bleed out in front of his 4 year old. It is no wonder I laugh when cops die.
Fuck you. I hope you live to see your wife and children murdered by cops does not seem a strong enough parting comment. I’ll think on it a while. Hold your justifying murder over plant possession, I’ll be back.
And before I am labeled a dope fiend, I don’t even drink alcohol, let alone do drugs. Banning either will not affect me personally, only that it corrupts further already corrupt cops.
I would love to see alcohol and tobacco banned with draconian penalties, if only to see cops forced to arrest each other.
@carlos/oldman I like commenting on these types of sites, knowing that many folks are simply going to call me a nazi or tell me that I’m wrong. My main reason isn’t to justify anyone’s actions. But to simply share what the current law, case law and what a department policy MIGHT say in reference to what we see or read about. To give a possible “why” we do things. Many times what I say is simply ignored, and I expect that from many who simply have made the decision that every cop is bad and that they can do nothing right.
For example I can’t tell you how many people I’ve had “conversations” with who have no idea what a “force continuem” is. Or the laws and standards that are used to judge the use of force. Many people simply look at the end result, verses what led up to it. Which isn’t how it works.
Nope, I haven’t said anything on YT because there’s nothing new.
No update on your wiretapping charges?
The bearcat is a done issue in my opinion. Though reading through the Keene Minutes was intertaining.
Common sense, the former marine who was murdered by swat was ok? The affidavit says otherwise? The affidavit comes from the perspective of the ones who committed the murder, the police. He thought he was being robbed, as a former marine myself I have done the same thing when I heard intruders on my property. Should I have been riddled with 70 bullets by a bunch a clowns who don’t even know how to employ the military style weapons they have anyway? Just because a bunch of soldier of fortune wanna be’s have a piece of paper, and think a guy has illegal plants in his house they get to storm it? Being a former marine he did what he did out of instinct and training. The body armor issue, I have three sets. When you are a marine through your tour, you pick up as much extra gear as you can to take home with you. The fact he was a former marine it isn’t surprising at all he had an extra set. This pisses me off, he was murdered in front of his family, and in a perfect world I would love for me and my former platoon to take on that group pussie who murdered him. That would be real justice
‘
@Lakewood,
Yes, clearly I was wrong, about Iran/Afgan – thanks for the clarification but I will take you correcting me as agreement that soldiers “just followed orders” when they fired rockets into home, strafed and bombed people. We’re they bad? Maybe, we’ll never know as they won’t see a court room. Maybe they were defending their homes from ‘invaders’ like Jose? Just a thought.
Either way, the Military and public police are to completely separate things.
As far as Jose’s past, he did get charged with the a weapon charge from his pistol and after reading dozens of documents, he was an accessory after and/or before the fact and thus a suspect in drug running. One can speculate that his friends could have taken the fall for him for some quick cash. A prosecutor and a judge signed several warrants for that day, so it meet the burden of proof. He raised a rifle and was beaten to the draw. Tragic? Maybe, if he chanted “I’ve got something for you” then he got what he wanted. No everything is the police’s fault sorry to say. The girl in FLA, tragic yes, but she knew better, an adult who should have stayed put. If she, in her drug warpped mind, tripped on the curb, you’d stay that was the police’s fault as well, as well as the city’s for making curbs too tall. Like I said, pick a different person, one without a rifle, and a stolen shotgun and bullet proof vests.
Soldiers in a war zone. Cops in the US. Different, in that my rules of engagement were far stricter in Iraq that a cop in any of the 50 states. Further,I added additional rules for convoy duty, since a favorite insurgent trick was to shoot at a convoy in traffic and try to get them to fire blindly, harming innocent Iraqis. My rule was you need a target before you pull the trigger. And I ditched most of the cool guy toys cops salivate over: armor piercing explosive rounds (red and silver) for our .50 cals, an automatic 40mm grenade launcher, and the process of “tacticooling” their weapons. All of those enforced a mindset of shoot first, which as a convoy commander was not my primary mission. Completing missions with no friendly casualties and no innocent deaths was paramount. Any troop anxious to “kill a haji” was not welcome. I lost not 1 troop in 100 convoys, and to my knowledge may have caused a single civilian death (high speed near collision).
Contrast that with the loosey-goosey “he made a firtitive movement” or “the cell phone looked like a gun” and a twitchy cop comes out blazing. Maybe it is because neither I or my troops had any expectation of safety, no entitlement to “go home at the end of their shift”. Maybe it has to do with the nature of our enemies. Mine are dedicated to killing me, and I understand and accept that. A cop’s enemy is anyone and everyone who is not a cop. He values his life and safety above all else.
And to the larger point of death in warfare, should we compare a linear ambush with IEDs and automatic fire to a cop claiming he was too slow to get his arm out of the window and blew away the Sunday school teacher, or the 6 cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death. Soldiers come back with bloody hands, that is certainly true. And bad things happen in warfare. But do you equate the two, or do you clearly see that DUI stop and firefight are different, that a 6 on 1 beating is morally different from a stand up firefight?
@Lakewood: you are just truly ridiculous.
Unlike cops, I welcome discussion of the morality of warfare and just war theory. Soldiers have a moral obligation to disobey illegal orders, and our moral code and legal obligation is spelled out in The Law of Land Warfare. Any soldier who violates that law and his oath deserves death, period. The more agregious violations in the news the last few years, especially the rape of the Iraqi girl and murder of her entire family, should have led to public executions.
Interestingly enough, the worst high profile violation of the Law of War, Abu Ghraib, was committed by members of the thin blue line. That’s right, reservists who are prison guards in their non army career.
Vey well put Lakewood! I’m glad to have another military member contributing to this website.
6 words, no content. Hard to dispute, I know. But give it a try.
Andy,
OIF I and III. 5 years at Bragg. Not a door kicker or Haifa street killer, but helped where I could.
You?
Marine 14 years, got out in June 2010. 0311 the whole time. last deployment was with bravo co. BLT 1/1.. Been a part of 15th, 13th, 24th, and 31st MEU’s. Keep giving to these guys. When all they can come up with is”you are truly ridiculous” you know they have nothing to say.
My grandfather was a 2nd Marine Tarawa survivor. He died while I was in airborne school. I didn’t dare leave to attend the funeral, for fear he would leap out of the casket and whup my ass.
So far as the cops and their boosters who post here, they miss the point of our disdain entirely. I hate and loathe cops for their threats to make up charges to jail my son on if I continued to make trouble about their questionable stop and tactics. That is one part.
The other is that we just don’t see the valor and honor in being a cop. Bravely stopping people for window tinting violations? Shooting family pets for fear they will nibble you to death? Using deadly force against Sunday school teachers and homeless mendicants is just, I am at a loss for words, unseemly. I cannot imagine going to work every day, looking for a reason to write a ticket to some hapless teenage girl who changes lanes in a way they dislike, or a 5 mile over citation that costs someone a large chunk of their rent money. I would have trouble looking in the mirror. I suppose someone has to do it, but someone also cleans the hair out of grease traps in sinks of fast food places. I’m glad I have not fallen so low as to think being a cop is a good idea.
If cops were actually keepers of the peace, interested in helping the weak and defenseless, putting themselves on the line to preserve life, things might be different. But the last 30 years have made them enforcers, tax collectors, symbols of intimidation. They decry our lack of support, and invite us to do a better job. The problem is, I do not think, as it is defined today, it is a job that needs doing. Invite me to go on a ride along to see how it really is? I can’t stand to be next to one of you in line at the bank. The presence of such degeneration and naked aggression makes me nauseated. The thought that one of you might stop my teenaged daughter, with the known cop predilection for rape and domestic abuse is horrifying.
I am not a hero, but I have been honored to serve with a few. Cops aren’t it.
One niece says she wants to be a cop, the other one wants to be a veterinarian. One is an honor student, the other is dumb as a post.
Which is which? Can you guess?
And can you imagine the trouble I caused when I told her that being a cop was a profession her uncle holds in contempt? Christmas dinner was uncomfortable, to say the least.
Andy,
Did I read in an earlier post you left the military over a philosophical crisis about the current wars?
Lakewood you hit it right on the head. Yes that post is from me. Please don’t take it as hating my service, or the corps. To me those two things were separate for my reason of leaving. I to this day, LOVE the brothers I served with. They will forever mean the world to me to the day I die, and I would take a bullet for anyone one of them. I just couldn’t justify doing the governments bidding anymore, but you read it and I hope you got what I meant.
@ PSOSGT
It is understandable that you can’t just say anything here.
I don’t know if your colleagues know you by this nic, but it is appreciate that you share your thoughts here.
Agree or disagree, talking helps both sides understand better even if at times there are respectful disagreements.
@ t.
Glad to read you admit to making mistakes. Like they say, to err is human.
But when you say: “The problems come when YOU and yours want to fight it out on the street.”
I like how you genralize things and insulting by saying I take dope.
<>
My camp? <_<
I don't fight Police officers and never committed a crime and don't even take drugs or alcohol.
I do believe that Police Officers must be accountable to their respective communities and as a concerned citizen, I do believe there is a problem in society with "some" police officers who use excessive force.
Do I believe all Police officers use excessive force? No.
But by you putting everyone here (who is not LEO) in the same boat and then calling them liberal dope lovers and then say we are all at war with police… <_<
There are all kinds of people here and not all of them agree 100% with every single post/thread on this site.
Respectfully, please try not to generalize all the time.
I have been in 22 years, from Bush I to Obama. I am not a huge fan of our political masters, but the constitution is set up that way. If I decide I don’t want to play in this war or that, and you carry that out to every service member, it gets hairy. I respect your decision. It takes courage to end a career in the middle over principle. But I am taking the long view. We both have a place in defense of the nation.
My main issue with our political class is that they are so incredibly stupid. Case in point-
At the end of the war phase in Iraq, the guy tasked to take over the end of the war was a retired warhorse named Jay Garner. Google him. I knew some of his cronies, and they told me a little about his plans for post war Iraq. Not inside info, he was plain in his plan. Hold elections ASAP, let the Iraqis decide their fate, and no matter what the results, LEAVE. A bold and brilliant plan. Victory is won, our junior partner can figure the rest out. No decades of occupation, no checkpoints and dead kids.
Apparently that did not sit well at higher. Bremer and his Harvard / Yale / Princeton team
come in, start dictating terms, and the rest is history.
And from the team I sent to Baghdad to assist Bremer and company, I took it that education does not equal ability. Too bad they were so right.
So I agree with you our masters are not always on the ball, but someone has to clean up the mess we have in the armed forces. Too bad they made it intolerable for you. We lose good ones every day to the silliness.
I am a Libertarian, believe in legalization as a way to ensure fewer dead people / people in dungeons, do not use any intoxicant, and find the concept of cops going to “war” with anyone who is not unarmed and outnumbered 6 to 1 laughable.
Does that count?
@ The_Lakewood_4_are_burning_in_Hell
Thats a horrible name you fucking scumbag, those officers had kids un-sensitve pussy.
And their kids would still have their parent if they had been in more honorable professions than cop, such as Fireman, used care salesman or crack whore.
Cry me a river.
Un-sensitive? I have to disable spell check to write that. Fucking scumbag is ok, though. As is pussy.
Carry on.
22 years, thanks Lakewood for your service. I think the name is great!
Lakewood: Remembering back to the sob story you tell about what turned you against the police, you remember, the one about how your innocent teenage son and his prone to sickness girlfriend had their car searched illegally by the ruthless, bastard cop? After reading your continuing and every more lunatic (not even lunatic fringe anymore) rantings, I think it’s probably pretty safe to assume that your apple didn’t fall to far from it’s tree. Because unless your son rejected everything that you are and stand for, he must be just as bad.
To e eryone else: How can you not denounce the lunatci Lakewood.? While I understand his right to free speach, his comments and probably his actions are clearly irresponsible and dangerous. He is clearly a danger to all and only weakens your stated goals.
Its a good thing that all marines/soilders are honest and loyal, valor abounds….
…The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians[1]. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed….
…The Maywand District killings refers to the murder of at least three Afghan civilians perpetrated by a group of U.S. Army soldiers in 2010, during the War in Afghanistan. The soldiers, who referred to themselves as the “Kill Team”,[1][2] were members of the 3rd Platoon, Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Infantry Regiment 5th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division.
…sorry Lakewood, there’s bad people all over, in all types of uniforms..
T,
I talk of taking extra effort to avoid harm to civilians, and you say my actions are dangerous how? I wish the cop in Culpepper took such care.
You were just wounded by my spot on comparison of cops to soldiers.
Which way is your spear pointed? Who does your shield protect?
Your whining tells me the answer.
Common Sense,
If there were not a 1000 to 1 cop malfeasance vs soldier malfeasance, and we’re I not ready to hold ANY soldier accountable for violations of the Law of Land Warfare, you might have a point.
But you don’t.
So you do stand by their convictions and pleas in those incidents, and the gov’ts payouts to the victim families. I just wanted to be sure.
Spears and shields? I am not sure what you were trying to say, perhaps if I had watch Nicholson’s performance in “A Few Good Men” a few more times I would understand whatever you were trying to say.
I think the sentences should have been longer. The rapists I mentioned earlier deserve death, period.
That clear enough?
SPEARS AND SHIELDS
The_Lakewood_4_are_burning_in_Hell says:
February 22, 2012 at 7:39 am
I have used this analogy a few time with predictable results: Cops and their supporters get upset, non-cops say, good point.
The vast majority of people like soldiers. I had to come up with a counter thank you to use at airports when I was traveling a lot in uniform a few years back (and thank you sir, for without you working hard and paying taxes, I could not do what I do). Cops have their supporters, but a lot of people don’t like cops. They would love to get the treatment soldiers get, but there is not the same feeling by the public, even though they both have uniforms and guns, and the propaganda mill is constantly churning the “cops as American heroes” meme.
To picture why, imagine a Hoplite, a Greek soldier of the classical era. Helmet, shield and spear.
Imagine the soldier as Hoplite. He and his brethren stand shoulder to shoulder, shields up in the defense of the nation, spear pointed at the enemies of the nation (though the legalities and moralities of war can be endlessly debated). The American citizen stands behind him, and his shield and spear defend them. He is expected to die in defense of the nation and is willing to do so. There are no knee-jerk phrases about a soldier’s most important duty is to go home to his family at the end of his shift. “Soldier Safety” is a laughable concept.
Now imagine the cop as Hoplite. His spear is pointed AT the citizen. He is at the ready to roust you at the above checkpoint. Take your money for whatever reason the State says. Take your life for possession of a plant the State has deemed illegal, or throw you into a
dungeon. Nobody feels relief when a cop pulls up behind him while driving, even if they are perfectly “law abiding”, whatever that means. A cop will tase a grade schooler, or a soccer mom, shoot an unarmed marine or as a group of 6 beat a homeless man to death for the crime of existing.
The cop’s spear is pointed at us. His shield defends his buddies and himself. You hear about “the thin blue line”, “professional courtesy” and “no matter what, always go home at the end of your shift”. Cops call non cops “civilians” (a laughable concept, as they too are civilians) or sheep. Cops will defend the most indefensible behavior on the part of another cop, not on moral grounds, but that the shooting of a soccer mom was “within policy”, as if that makes her death any less terrible.
There is no thin camo line. Cops are not our defenders. Their spears are pointed the wrong
way. And there is no disputing that fact.
And the cop rapist from an earlier post deserves death. He’ll get a paid vacation instead, because cops do not support accountability for other cops.
Warriors have no time for scumbags in their midst. That is why bad soldiers get caught, and bad cops get away with it again and again. Tolerance of dishonor. Soldier do not tolerate it, cops do.
If you do not believe me, google the term “one third of Florida cops should be in jail”.
The story it points to is that literally a third of cops in Florida have been convicted of malfeasance that should have them in jail or working at Walmart.
Find a similar shocking statistic about soldiers. You can’t.
T,
I am dangerous, except to your fragile sense of self, how?
Everyone,
Help the cops out. Denounce me as a dangerous lunatic. I don’t buy the cops as heroes meme. Obviously a dangerous lunatic. Not shedding tears for dead cops. Doubly so.
I’ll start.
I’m a dangerous lunatic. I don’t worship at the blue altar. I’m a heretic. Mock me and point out my bad spelling.
T
Stop that while you watch “2 girls, 1 donut”. You’ll go blind.
Lakewood, that spears and shields comment was great! I have never heard it put that way. It’s exactly how I have felt! Keep it up brother!
Andy my brother,
It is utterly irrefutable. And cops hate to hear it. They know something has gone terribly wrong, but they cannot get their minds around it. Being a cop is like being red-green color blind. It is impossible for them to perceive it.
Look at the comment section of Police One. Cops regularly applaud cops who do horrifying things, just because they are cops. I cannot wait to read the comments when the Culpepper shooting is finally covered on their site. 90% will say “good shoot” or “the stupid sheep should have followed commands and the heroic officer would not have been forced to heroically defend himself” or some such bullshit.
What I have not stated in my continued evolution as a cop hater is the invaluable resource Police One has been. Every time I think cops are humans, I go to the site and read defense of the indefensible.
You and I as warriors know that the presence of a dishonorable shitbag in the ranks is like having an endlessly bleeding wound, sapping the vitality of the force.
Read comments by cops who cheer when one of their brethren beats the rap, or is rehired after some unforgivable crime against decency. They embrace the corruption of their ranks. Entitlement and corruption infest the police like syphilis.
I was wrong, it’s not Nicholson, it’s Butler in “300″
Study by Ministry of Justice of south Korea shows that among the 39,452 cases (45,183 US soldiers involved) of crimes committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1987, south Korea was able to exercise its jurisdiction only in 234 cases, punishing only 351 US soldiers. Among them, 84 US soldiers were convicted of rape and 89 US soldiers were convicted of murder and robbery. Taking into account the fact that rape cases were more common before 1967, and that many rape cases were intentionally hidden and forgotten, the actual number of rape cases committed by US soldiers will be much higher than what official figures suggest.
That took 7 seconds. I will do some more. I would like to see a comparison between military and police.
Ancient Greek military history is inextricably bound up with homosexuality. In some ancient Greek city states, such as Sparta, each young warrior had to take a lover and mentor from among the seasoned fighters as part of his military training. In other city states, such as Thebes and Athens, such arrangements were common on a more informal basis. For the close hand-to-hand fighting of the Greek hoplites, which relied on each man defending his partner, intimate bonds guaranteed each warrior would fight to the death before abandoning his post. Nowhere was this theory taken to greater extremes than in the Sacred Band of Thebes.
…interesting footnote
The fact that South Korea was a military dictatorship during that time period does not skew your thinking in the slightest? State controlled media? Try again.
And that being said, I have always contended that ANY violation of the Law of Land Warfare should be punished with savagery and speed.
The point is clear. Soldiers have committed crimes just as the police have.
The Sacred Band business is interesting, but of little real value. A society peopled exclusively by homos would not last very long. As is true today, the vast majority of Greeks, inside and outside the military were strait, or at least did their civic duty and reproduced.
I know you were trying to make a point, but like a badly malformed fetus, it self-aborted.
Lol, just a footnote…
Soldier commit crimes? Really, no shit. I would have never imagined. And think, since soldiers are empowered by society to enforce the law…
No wait, that’s not right. COPS are empowered to enforce the law and lock people up and kill them under color of law and should be held to a really fucking high standard. And should not tolerate law breaking among their fellow law enforcers.
Damn you are dense.
Lol? Are you a 14 year old girl? I thought I was speaking to a fellow male.
Sorry to have been so harsh, little girl. Don’t tell you BFF on me. IDK you were a chick. Sorry 4 my bad language. :)
Can someon better suited for this discussion please tag out with common sense?
In the Fort Hood shooting, on November 5, 2009, a gunman reportedly shouted “Allahu Akbar!” (“God is greatest”)[75][76][77] and opened fire in the Soldier Readiness Center of Fort Hood, located just outside Killeen, Texas, killing 13 people and wounding 29 others in the worst shooting ever to take place on an American military base.[4]
Can’t seem to recall a police officer doing something like this…
Common, the point being made is soldiers and marines do commit indefensible crimes, but Lakewood is right. We would never tolerate a shit bag doing something immoral to another human being “they are like a bleeding wound in the unit. Cops have a totally different mentality, protect each other no matter what, even when they commit murder!
A Muslim traitor. A psychiatrist, allowed in the army because we are not allowed to discriminate.
If you think “Maj” Hassan was ever a soldier, you are considerably dumber than I thought. And I hope he lives a long life, colostomy bag and all.
Brother,
Exactly. The difference is tolerance of evil. They do, we don’t.
A rapist soldier who targets the weak is not a soldier, and will not be recognized as one. He may be dressed like us, but he will never again be one of us.
Compare that to the cop who raped a woman, then internal affairs went to her house to talk her out of pursuing charges. It was significant, because it led to ruling against the illegality of recording the police in Illinios.
I cannot imagine such behavior in our ranks.
The difference with the fort hood shooting. The army denounced him, and is going to prosecute him to the full extent of the UCMJ, the death penalty. When a cop commits murder, Kelly Thomas, Sunday school teacher in VA., you still have the brass protecting them, putting them on paid vacation, and finding anyway to vindicate his actions.
And before someone blathers about rape in the military, here is my personal take from my command time.
In 3 years of command, there were many accusations of rape. 90% when investigated were “buyers remorse” after a wild night in the barracks.
2 cases in 3 years were found to have merit. First one the girl was sent to my unit because she was thought of as a trouble maker. In our in processing interview she accuses a fellow soldier of raping her. I tell her I will crush him if it is true, but always pursue false charges to the fullest extent. She is vehement, and I have CID there in 2 hours. He ends up in prison after a courts martial.
Second case, in Iraq. Troop gets drunk, tries unsuccessfully to break into a subordinates room, all the while making suggestive comments through the door. I recommend a special courts martial to the Brigade commander. In the end, he loses 2 stripes and is shipped off to the ass end of Iraq. I would have preferred him trade his rank of Seargent First Class for the rank of “prisoner”, but I did not win every battle.
I suggested to the girl later, off the record, that I would have defender her actions if she had shot him. He was a fucking disgrace, better off dead than contaminating another unit.
Common sense,
When you plug and chug from Wikipedia, delete the little cite numbers. It makes you look like a tool.
The notion that you wouldn’t stand for such conduct is fine, but saying others woulded turn a blind eye or otherwise fail to report such actions is niave as it has happened in the service and in police work. Saying you can’t imagine it sounds short sighted.
On a side note, you would had to address him as “sir” or “major” – salute the rank not the man isn’t it? No point just an observation.
On a separate topic – what’s your take on the Manning issue?
… And don’t know if it’s a case of “defending them” but more a matter of due process. I don’t think the Culpeppet shooting was justified. How many times has there been a rush to judgement and someone who was guilty is freed (OJ) and those innocent (Duke lacrosse) are persecuted wrongly.
Lastly, do those incidents make all soldiers bad? Of course not. Then why do you think that specific and separate incidents that involve the police make them all bad?
I just read that crime is 40% higher around military bases. I wonder what the rate of crime is for servicemen vs public vs police. I will do some searching tomorrow, it would be interesting to see some figures.
First, Hassan is a prisoner. He has no rank. He has no right to salute or be saluted.
Second, why are there so many stories of cops being cleared of obviously murderous activity, on the basis that it does not violate policy? The one thing that chafes me more than anything is obvious evil excused because it did not violate a magical cop rule no one else is able to employ to their benefit. Try the “furtitive movement” defense in killing your unarmed neighbor. Soldiers do bad things, but it is not their sworn job to prevent such hangs. Soldiers are not sworn to uphold the law. They are sworn to uphold and defend the constitution rom all enemies, foreign and domestic. Never does it say, and bust dope dealers.
When soldiers fail in their defense of the nation, they are cowards and deserters. Call them on that and you are in their lane. Saying soldiers smoke more dope than non soldiers (which is not the case, especially with random unrinalysis, but just for the sake of argument) is wholly irrelevant. Saying cops smoke more dope would be relevant, because they throw people in dungeons for that very offense.
As for the manning thing, 2 issues. One, truth and transparency is always better. The famous gun camera film from the apache helicopter is a prime case. I see armed men in a thermographic sight. There are hundreds of such films. Is it a bad shoot. Don’t know. Should all such shoots be investigated, yes. Should we be there now, not in my opinion. See earlier comment on Jay Garner.
Second point on manning. He violated his oath, became a tool for people with an agenda, and released hundreds of thousands of documents with little concern for what was in them. If he managed to do some good, to me it seems entirely incidental. He was an angry little dipshit, striking back at a military and a country he swore an oath to. I hope he fries.
And, as is always my point, cops violate their oath and sacred trust when they shoot the innocent, oppress the citizenry and generally clomp around like over armed toddlers. Soldiers who break the law, depending on the specific law, might be shitty soldiers. Cops who break the law and use it for evil, are violating the trust they have put in them.
When cops stand in unison and decry corruption in their midst, we can talk. While there are still cops who are not fucking apalled that one of their brethren migh have, even accidentally, scattered a Sunday school teachers brains in what should be zero cause to draw his taser, let alone his sidearm, then cops are a danger to us all, including you. I give not one fuck if he was within use of force policy that gives him a mother may I for blowing her fucking head off. She was unarmed, she’s dead, and cops apologists are working themselves into a masterbatory lather about why it is her fault.
Fuck them.
In G Gordon Liddy’s book “Will”, he recounts a discussion with a superior in the FBI about the repercussions of a bd shoot.
“If you put a hole in a civilian, you will wish you WERE that civilian”.
Now it is “You put a hole in a civilian, we’ll make sure you are taken care of, get paid time off, and we’ll make it go away with hush money.”
And I am the dangerous one?
You? Dangerous? Far from it.
And yes, you would have saluted Hassan, prior to the shooting naturally.
As far as the police ‘violating policy’ – I believe it comes down to perception. Simply because you think excessive force was used, the courts may feel other wise. Sometimes people just don’t want to go to jail so they put up a struggle. Even the USSC has given some latitude when dealing with the police on issues pertaining specifically to their job. Is his right? Maybe, maybe not. I, and I’m sure you know, that district, circuit, federal, appellate courts all differ. You have a noticeable differences between say the 9th and the 3rd US Court of Appeals.
As far as ‘waistband’ shootings, I am in agreement, LA County Sheriff has done much to study it and issued a detailed report. I think that the “I thought he was going for a gun” is not a justifiable defense. But in that same idea, neither is dropping JDAMs on houses where troops took several rounds from a dirt farmer and are completely unaware of who is inside.
As you state “Soldiers do bad things, but it is not their sworn job to prevent such hangs.” I refer you to the USMJ Article 78 “Any person subject to this chapter who, knowing that an offense punishable by this chapter has been committed, receives, comforts, or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial, or punishment shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.” So, I am quite sure there is something in the USMJ that states otherwise.
I don’t think I have every made any assumption about drug use between the military and the police. But the idea that the nation’s prisons are ‘dungeons’ is a bit theatrical. AC, cable, workout rooms, full dental and medical, 2600 cal meals, law library – I dare a typical prison in a US prison has it better then any soldier or any prison abroad but I’m sure there are exceptions. Its the judicial system that sentence people to prison, the ‘state’ the either proves or does not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury or judge, its only the allegation of a crime that comes from the police.
I agree with the viewpoint on Manning, but when it comes to the transgressions of police and soldiers, doesn’t the public put trust and faith in them both? Are not both professions tarnished by the actions of the few? Kent State comes to mind. Again, perhaps its a matter perception. When the police violate their oath, its typically US citizens who are in the sights, but when its a soldier, its a foreign national, usually. I am sure in those incidents in Iraq that I sited, there were ‘hard feelings’ and resentment between the community where those soldiers patrolled just as in Oakland PD and Olsen incident.
Who has not seen footage of some ‘terrorist’ in Iraq or Afghanistan shot or strafed without due process? Of course, RoE notwithstanding. I recently watched a video about a sniper team who had been tracking either a IED planter or sniper for 2 days. They waited and waited until while he walked out of his mud hut, bang, 800 meter head shot. What that legal? He was not an ‘active threat’ but he was ‘potential’ threat I’m sure. But soldiers are not the police, each have two separate objectives and sets of rules but in a some instances, they are very similar; they both wear uniforms, take orders, if they do not ‘follow orders’ they are subject to discipline, use force to complete their objective, question and detain people, and they both take an oath.
What of the ‘sniper baiting’ incidents? I know the ‘law of land warfare’ oppose this, so why did it happen? Why was it condoned or promoted? Oath taken soldiers were even given ‘drop items’ to bait them “…Specialist Sandoval is the first of the three suspects to be tried in a court-martial. He and Sergeant Hensley were accused of leaving a spool of wire that could be used to detonate roadside bombs in a pocket of the man whom Specialist Sandoval shot in April, on Sergeant Hensley’s command…” Were they just following orders? Did they display “corruption of their ranks. Entitlement and corruption?” Were they “evil?” Did they violate the trust that you and even the Iraqis put in them??
I looked up one site linked from here about police misconduct. It cited 6000+ cases of misconduct in 2009 and of that, 1500+ cases of excessive force linked to 6600+ cops. The numbers are interesting. Based on those numbers; is 0.002% of all the cops in the nation have been subject to a misconduct charge of any time. Even if there are x10 the number of allegations, your still at only at 0.02%. And yes, at x100 the number, still at 0.23%
Now spread the number of excessive force allegation over the number of annual arrests made in the US, which is around 14 million. Even if you x100 the number of alleged uses of excessive force, you are hovering at 0.01% of each arrest leading to excessive force. And no, not all police departments are racked with crime and corruption, 60 miles west of New Orleans is the Thibodaux Police Department, 56 sworn officers, 14,012 population, and 4 complaints of misconduct in 2009. I would cite the list of police departments where there were no reports of police misconduct but I would run out of characters.
Is it truly fair to paint both either professions with the broad stripe? With the police, at least in my opinion, you have a recourse, you get due process, you can file complaints, go to the media and file a civil suit.
Does due process apply in war? I was unaware of that fact. The US constitution applies to Americans and aliens in the US. There are only rules of engagement in the combat zone.
As for drones as policy, talk to the air force and the president. I am against using drones to blow away Americans accused of being “terrorists”. I am against the existence of the TSA and DHS. I think the war on terror is misguided and foolish.
Prisons not dungeons? Google “prison rape”.
UCMJ vs oath. UCMJ is internal policing of soldiers for offenses. A soldier violating Article 137, for example, is between him and the military, not society at large. The UCMJ covers everything from murder to sloppy uniforms. I do not swear an oath to uphold the UCMJ, but suffer its punishments if I violate it’s commands. Important point.
Sniper bating. That it is known at all is a testament to purging corruption from the ranks. And as always, I unconditionally support efforts to punish misconducts in the ranks. Only cops and nazis really believe “they were just following orders / don’t make the law only enforce it”. As for JDAMs on dirt farmer huts, I’ll need a cite. JDAMs are expensive, and I imagine their indiscriminate use is rare.
Police misconduct is note rare. It is rarely punished. And from my experience, they will use all manner of threats to ensure it is not reported in the first place.
Stating “Police misconduct is note rare” is like saying “the moon isn’t that big” – its ambiguous.
Please find me a study to show the instances of police misconduct. I said about 6000 per the site. Is the accurate? Doubtful but its numbers to start.
For NYPD, just top 7 major crimes categories in 2010, there were 106,000 reported – for just the 5 boroughs (1600 in south Manhattan just last week).
Add that with traffic stops, search warrants, arrest warrants, calls for service, vol. encounters, I would say its 500,000 interactions/requests for the police over the course of a given year, just for NYPD.
Now, add in the other 18000 police departments in the US and you’ll see that the chance of you being ‘beaten by the nazi police’ is astronomical.
I’ll see if I can find out many calls for service the police run on, perhaps is a billion.
@ common sense.. i think you 1/2 million is way off. A typical call load for a city comes close to the actual population. Don’t know why, just seems that way. City I work for has 65k residents, and we get about 70k calls a year. And that’s just 911 calls. BY having a few million folks most likely has a few million calls a year. I read somewhere years ago that 911 is called over 2 Billion times a year. THAT is ALOT of police interaction. Add everything else on top of that.
And Carlos.. Don’t know if you’ll read this one, but what should that cop have done instead of taser her? Tackle? Trip? We’ve seen that cause big injuries as well.
Lets see…..50 000 volts going through a body,that has been known to temporarily paralyze,cause excrutiating pain, cause convulsions, and in some cases, screw up the impulses to the heart and kill somebody.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/story/2010/05/06/taser-policy-reax-nwt.html
Why do you think the RCMP implemented these new rules? Tasers are not meant to be used as a cop’s personal “obey” device, but a device to immobilize would-be attackers. To say that it justifies to putting 50 000 volts, and causing that much pain to “avoid injury”,b A.K.A to avoid getting dirty and possibly get a few bumps and scratches, is simply retarded. Alot of taser-happy cops either don’t realize or don’t care that a taser can kill somebody. a few bumps and bruises vs convusions and death. i’ll take my bumps thankyou very much!
@Din365-
He could have tackled her. However at over 6 feet tall and 320 lbs, he would have most likely caused severe injuries. You can second guess him all day long, but he did what was least likely to cause injury. She was the one that tried to escape (2nd degree felony).
Oh, and Tasers are meant to stop and attacker or a fleeing suspect, which it did. The pain is not excrutiating. It hurts for 5 seconds and goes away completely.
You all heard it, din365 wants and welcomes a butt whippin’.
JUST KIDDING!! Kinda
at 6 feet and 320 lbs,the fat fuck needs to lay off the doughnuts and hit the gym. some guys towering near 7 feet are just barely scratching the 300 mark. I’d tell ya right now that tub of lard wouldn’t last long in my great uncle’s days as an RCMP officer.
now,back to the tasers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser
“A Taser is an electroshock weapon that uses electrical current to disrupt voluntary control of muscles.”
“A taser isn’t a remote-control for people. Want to talk to someone? Then walk over to them and talk. Don’t tase them and expect them to cooperate. Also, when someone is being tased and is writhing in cardiac arrest on the ground, they aren’t “resisting arrest” by not getting on their knees and neatly kowtowing to your demands. They’re incapacitated. You look like idiots barking orders at them when they can’t move.”
To sit there and say “oh, having 50000 volts go through your body can’t hurt THAT bad” is just downright stupid. if that’s the case, if it “doesn’t hurt that bad”, then how come people don’t just deadweight and let cops shock em all day then?
Sorry. science and common sense trumps you yet again.
@Din365-
None of your nonsense about how tasers are bad have anything to do with this situation. He didn’t want to have a conversation with her, he wanted her to stop. Which she did.
Based on her decision to flee, he had to act (and did so appropriately).
Dang. You really hate cops dont you? What REALLY happened to you anyway?