This is one of the most important call floods you can participate in. As of this morning, the Bradley Manning Support Network issued a press release urging supporters to take action:
Quantico base commander:
COL Daniel Choike
Phone: +1-703-784-2707
3250 Catlin Avenue
Quantico, VA 22134Marine Brig commanding officer:
CWO4 James Averhart
Fax: +1-703-784-4242
3247 Elrod Avenue
Quantico, VA 22134
Bradley Manning is alleged to have leaked the Secret US Embassy Cables now being released by Wikileaks, which detail widespread corruption and deceit in governments around the world. Despite this heroic act, Manning has been held captive for over 210 days under the most repressive level of military detention, referred to by many experts as inhumane and torturous. He is being confined and isolated by force in a small cell for 23 hours a day, denied all forms of privacy and personal belongings, forced to surrender clothing when he sleeps and denied pillows and sheets, denied access to relevant news and communication with many contacts, denied the ability to exercise, and is likely experiencing psychosis, identity destruction, hallucinations, or other forms of extreme psychological breakdown associated with solitary confinement.
Let’s start dialing. James Averhart and Daniel Choike are personally and morally responsible for the trauma Bradley is experiencing. Manning must be released immediately. Exposing the crimes of a government is heroic, and Manning shouldn’t be punished for it.
POSSIBLE TALKING POINT: US Army Prisoner of War Resistance Manual from 1981 (FM 21-78) lists isolation/solitary confinement under “Communist Methods for Forcing Cooperation”.
How to fax a Free Bradley Manning flyer to the Brig Commander from your computer for FREE:
1 – Download flyer PDF here http://www.bradleymanning.org/wiki/index.php?title=File%3AManningPoster_20.pdf
2 – Go to https://faxzero.com/
3 – Enter required info CWO4 James Averhart Fax: 703-784-4242 and attach the PDF file
4 – Click “Send Free Fax”
5 – Click confirmation URL in the email sent to you
6 – DONE!
Gunnery Sergeant Capistran answered at 703-784-2707. I asked for the Colonel and he asked what I was calling about. I said “Private Manning”. He tried to refer me to the Public Affairs office and I took that number. I explained that I’m not calling for PA, but to speak to the Col. He said the Col is not in so I said that I’d like to leave a message. He said OK and I asked if he was ready to write it down. He said he was so I began by giving my name and saying that I insist that Manning be released or at least his conditions are improved. The Sergeant stopped me and said he wouldn’t take the message and that I should call the PA office. I said that I’m leaving a message for the Colonel and said “Isn’t that your job as someone answering the phone in the Colonel’s office?” He still refused, referred me to PA and hung up.
I called Public Affairs 703-432-0289 It’s a lieutenant’s answering machine in PA. I left him a message explaining that Gunnery Sergeant Capistran referred me and insisted the the Lt was the Col’s personal answering service and that he would walk a message over to the Colonel.
I just got an email that the fax failed. Perhaps that’s not a good number or they’ve disconnected the fax?
Bradley Manning has a conscience. He understands the “Big Picture” He knew of or witnessed
a mass murder and he reported a crime. The people in the service are working for the banks and the corporations and they need to know it. It can’t continue.
Bring a Writ of Habeas Corpus…. Anyone can do this on behalf of Bradley…. what they are doing is unlawful…
Look up Writ of Habeas Corpus.
I shall see you again in the place with no dark I guess.
Sorry, but I’ve no sympathy for Manning, what-so-ever. He -knowingly- gave away intelligence data he had no right to give, and is directly responsible for the murder of afgani people who simply wanted to build a country when schoolgirls where not burned alive for the crime of having a vagina. No, I”m not exaggerating, look it up. Why did he do this? apparently because he got his feelings hurt. Now, I could be wrong, and Manning could be innocent. That’s what a court martial is for. The -other- reason they’re holding him in maximum confinement is for his own safety. If they let Manning into general population at a military prison, his life expectancy would be measured in seconds. You see, from the other inmates point of view, -Manning killed their friends-. Not only did he kill their friends, he did it for the most disgusting of reasons, Manning ‘felt slighted’. If they could get to him, they’d tear him apart.
Personally, -If- ( and mind you I say ‘if’ ) the charges on Manning are accurate, I’d like to stuff Manning and Assange into a burlap sack, and beat them with a pickax handle until they leak out the seams.
It appears we put out a bit of goobed up information.
784-4242 appears at http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/activities/display.aspx?PID=588&Section=SecBn as the brig fax. However, in the MCB “S List” at the phone directory, http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/activities/display.aspx?PID=1686&Section=BaseInfo, that number is shown as going to the brig mess hall.
The former guide shows 784-6870 as the brig commanding officer, while the latter gives 784-2718. 6870 goes to a voicemail with no identification, 2718 is answered as “Quantico Base Brig”, and is apparently a general number.
Here’s an email address for the base commander: [email protected]
I’d just like to say, matthew house…..your a fuckin retard
Matthew House support unaccountable government.
Matthew House supports war crimes.
Matthew House would rather kill heroes than stop being un-American in his support for a criminal American government.
Matthew House is child-like and never developed an ability to engage in independent moral reasoning.
Matthew House supports authority at all costs and would have made a good concentration camp guard.
Matthew House is an example of the all-too-common sort of coward this society is afflicted with, one too cowed by the social weight of authority structures to stand up for what is right.
@Matthew House: Stunning. Simply stunning. That may be one of the better troll comments I’ve seen but to brutally murder someone? Amazing. I can’t even get past how gruesome your punishment suggestion is. And we in America consider ourselves a people of peace? You’ve been listening to Huck and Sarah a bit much lately ‘eh?
I say love thy enemy! And young Matthew seems to desperately need a cuddle right now. You shouldn’t be angry with him. In all probbability it is not his fault for being angry and hateful and deeply emotionally disturbed like that. Deep down he really just needs our love!
Don’t forget a good water-based lubricant and use a condom when you give it to him!
Luw, baby!
I notice neither of you actually address my points.
1. Bradly Manning took actions that directly led to the death of innocent people, specifically afgani civilians.
2. Holding Bradly Manning is not being held in solitary as punishment, it is to ensure that the other inmates do not kill him.
3. Manning’s document dump accomplished nothing positive, and did a great deal of harm.
4. Manning’s reasons are…strange. Fame? because he got his feelings hurt? We dont know.
now, as far as your commentary, Mr. Spengler.
*Matthew House support unaccountable government.
Far from it, my friend. For the most part, I approve of what you do, strongly. Government must be accountable. However, I do not see how what Manning did does any good for anyone, at all. All Manning accomplished was to give a bunch of murderous bastards a shopping list of people to kill. If Manning’s little temper tantrum accomplished something positive, by all means, let me know.
*Matthew House supports war crimes.
First of all, I sincerely doubt you know what a ‘war crime’ -is-, let alone if I support them. Go do some reading on what defines a ‘war crime’, and get back to me. I think you’d be suprised, and not pleasantly so. ( hint, under international law, it’s -perfectly legal- to shoot surrendured al queda, taliban, Hamas, etc, on the spot, without trial. Strangely enough, we dont. Those crazy war crimes, eh? )
*Matthew House would rather kill heroes than stop being un-American in his support for a criminal American government.
If Bradly Manning is, in fact, guilty of what he is accused, then yes, I would very much like to see him executed. Unlike others, I’m willing to wait for the courts to do thier job. who knows, he might be innocent.
*Matthew House is child-like and never developed an ability to engage in independent moral reasoning.
So violating multiple oaths, and knowingly taking actions that kill innocent people who simply wanted to be free is somehow ‘morally good’? I’m sorry, but in what universe were Manning’s actions ‘good’, and -why- were they good?
*Matthew House supports authority at all costs and would have made a good concentration camp guard.
Laughably untrue, and not worth adressing, but I”m trying to be polite here.
*Matthew House is an example of the all-too-common sort of coward this society is afflicted with, one too cowed by the social weight of authority structures to stand up for what is right.
You know, I just figured out why you parsed your reply the way you did. nice google-trick, btw, but it wont work.
I make my own choices, I take in information, and make decisions, and act on them. My opinions are my own.
And here you come thundering in, all full of ‘ad hominum’, and making a pest of yourself. Why? all because I dont support the GroupThink. Here’s a hint for you, if you want to make traction with the rest of the country, dont support people like Manning.
You guys do good work, for the most part, but when you come out in support of a guy who violated national security and got people killed because he got in a fight with his boyfriend, you look like a bunch of idiots.
Stick to nice, clear cut cases, and you’ll shine. Stay involved in this crap, and you’ll be written off as irrellevant.
Regards…
Ryan-
Manning put my brothers (and sisters) in arms at great risk, for personal gain. He ruined the lives of a bunch of good anfgani people who just wanted those crazy bastards in the taliban and al queda to go away, and stop murdering their children.
To what end did he do this? Fame? Revenge? Power?
You can wail about Big Oil, and how we are horrible imperalists, or what ever it is this week. But on the ground, in afganistan-
Woman can go to school, and not have acid thrown in their faces, or be herded into schoolhouses, and have the building burned to the ground with them in it, or simple killed.
Women have rights, and are no longer slaves.
People can worship as they choose, or not at all, if they choose.
Families no longer worry that the terrorists or the druglords will come by the village, and take their son as a conscript, and return him as a corpse, if at all.
Where the american military holds, people do cower in fear.
These people have lives now, instead of mere survival.
And it’s paid for in american blood and gold.
and before you say it, -yes- we fuck up sometimes. Dont think we dont know that we occasionally get the wrong target. Dont think it doesnt bother us. We operate under the most timid, and restrictive rules of engagement in the written history of man.
And Manning came along, and undid years of hard work. What good did he accomplish? seriously? what concrete, positive thing has come from his actions?
arg…
typo..
“Where the american military holds, people do cower in fear.”
Should read
“Where the american military holds, people do *not* cower in fear.”
ah, the mistake of posting before coffee.
@Matthew House
I do appreciate the comment you made about Copblock “You guys do good work, for the most part,” and taking time to answer every comment made about you. There are always two sides two an argument and you defiantly made yours.
Matthew your imperialist delusions would be funny if they didn’t waste so much “American blood and gold” and a lot more innocent Afghan blood.
Address your points? Happy to. Regarding the salvation of Afghan women, see this recent UN report-
http://unama.unmissions.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1783&ctl=Details&mid=1882&ItemID=4607
“Findings reveal that Afghan women are subjected to an INCREASINGLY insecure
environment. Women participating in public life face threats, harassment and attacks. In
extreme cases, women have been killed for holding jobs that are seen to disrespect
traditional practices or are considered “un-Islamic.”
…Despite the hopes expressed nearly eight years ago, the rights and aspirations of Afghan women, and the men who support them, remain largely unfulfilled. The vast majority of Afghan women suffer a significant human rights deficit; for them, human rights are values, standards, and entitlements that exist ONLY in theory and at times, not even on paper.”
… it is also apparent that armed conflict and insecurity, criminality and
lawlessness, are on the rise and with it the level of violence that jeopardizes the lives of
Afghans, men, women and children. In this respect, Afghanistan mirrors experience
elsewhere which indicates “a near universal co-relation between heightened conflict,
insecurity, and violence against women.””
– And because of this, the bravest, most respected womens’ rights activist in the country demands our troops get out now. -
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41402.html
“Malalai Joya was elected to the new Afghan parliament in a landslide but was suspended after appearing on a television show where she compared the parliament to an animal stable. She has survived four assassination attempts and has received countless death threats.
Malalai, who ran an underground girls school during the Taliban years, was in Australia last week and her message was clear – all troops should be withdrawn from Afghanistan now.”
@ Matthew – for every source that says someone died because of Manning’s actions, I can find one source that says no one did. But let’s assume you are correct.
The collateral murder video shows some pretty horrendous things being committed by our military. It’s disgusting, and it’s wrong. These are not actions we want the military to be taking. There simply is no justification for hiding this kind of information. To blame Manning for the subsequent death of people because of his leak is to blame the messenger. For instance, if you knew someone was a serial killer, and turned them in, and the victims’ families subsequently retaliated and killed not only the killer, but other innocent people associated with him, does this mean you were wrong to turn in a serial killer?
Or how about if you told your friend his spouse was cheating, and the marriage was ruined? Would it be your fault for ruining the marriage?
Perhaps the people to be held accountable are the people in government and in the military who began this mess to begin with. In the serial killer scenario, the killer must be held accountable. In the cheating spouse scenario, the failure of the marriage clearly is the cheater’s fault. It is no different here. If the American military did not want terrible consequences to flow from their atrocious actions, they should not have committed those very atrocious actions to begin with.
@ Matthew – I don’t understand why you would completely ignore the idea of holding the government accountable for its actions instead. It all sounds kind of like scapegoating. This war is bogus. We started in Iraq 8 years ago, and I honestly don’t even know how we got into Afghanistan. People are more likely to choke on their own vomit and die than be killed in a terrorist attack. They are 8x more likely to be killed by police than die in a terrorist attack. They are 17,600 times more likely to die of heart disease, yet the military continues to go around on some imperialistic, power-tripping global conquest. THESE are the actions that are wrong and must be punished, not those of Manning and Assange.
Also, have you read the reports of the trafficking of minors by an American company (95% funded by the government) in Afghanistan? This was something that Wikileaks revealed. Are you really saying that we should keep child trafficking secret because the military says so?
@ Matthew – I agree with Nathan completely. But again, let’s assume you’re right that women can go to school and a few opportunities or liberties have been restored. But at what cost – and why do you have a right to sacrifice those lives for this goal? I have heard estimates indicate about 100,000 people have died. This includes children and American soldiers. The Collateral Murder video shows American soldiers laughing and joking as they shoot civilians, and kill children, and blow up a van that comes to collect dead bodies.
A soldier is currently due to serve time because he became so desensitized he felt Iraqis weren’t human, and went on a raping and killing rampage. Who are you to make the decision that these 100,000 lives, rapes, and other atrocities were worth the poorly-substantiated claims that life is better there now? What if I did some studies and decided that the world would be much better off without China and North Korea, because they harbor communist ideals and stand in the way of America? Could I advocate that the American government kill them off because I decided it was for the good of the rest of the world?
1. Bradly Manning took actions that directly led to the death of innocent people, specifically afgani civilians.
You mean more people that the soldiers on the ground have actually killed?
2. Holding Bradly Manning is not being held in solitary as punishment, it is to ensure that the other inmates do not kill him.
Solitary confinement is one thing. Not having a pillow, blanket, or the ability to exercise is another.
3. Manning’s document dump accomplished nothing positive, and did a great deal of harm.
That’s subjective. What harm?
4. Manning’s reasons are…strange. Fame? because he got his feelings hurt? We dont know.
What does that have to do with advocating torture?
“Far from it, my friend. For the most part, I approve of what you do, strongly. Government must be accountable. However, I do not see how what Manning did does any good for anyone, at all. All Manning accomplished was to give a bunch of murderous bastards a shopping list of people to kill. If Manning’s little temper tantrum accomplished something positive, by all means, let me know. ”
He gave the US Soldiers a list of people to kill? Shouldn’t’ that be getting your vagina wet?
First of all, I sincerely doubt you know what a ‘war crime’ -is-, let alone if I support them. Go do some reading on what defines a ‘war crime’, and get back to me. I think you’d be suprised, and not pleasantly so. ( hint, under international law, it’s -perfectly legal- to shoot surrendured al queda, taliban, Hamas, etc, on the spot, without trial. Strangely enough, we dont. Those crazy war crimes, eh? )
If you look up Terrorism it’s perfectly reasonable to state that the US Government is a terrorist organization. Just on the definition of course…
“If Bradly Manning is, in fact, guilty of what he is accused, then yes, I would very much like to see him executed. Unlike others, I’m willing to wait for the courts to do thier job. who knows, he might be innocent.”
Yes, torture him until you can prove he’s guilty and then murder him… Just don’t tell me your a Christian. That would be too fucking funny.
“So violating multiple oaths, and knowingly taking actions that kill innocent people who simply wanted to be free is somehow ‘morally good’? I’m sorry, but in what universe were Manning’s actions ‘good’, and -why- were they good?”
You mean like the troops who swore to protect and defend the Constitution? Oh, they don’t have to live up to their oaths, but manning should be held to higher ideal? Typical government apologist.
“And here you come thundering in, all full of ‘ad hominum’, and making a pest of yourself. Why? all because I dont support the GroupThink. Here’s a hint for you, if you want to make traction with the rest of the country, dont support people like Manning. ”
But you do support the group think. Just because you support the popular group think doesn’t make you right.
“You guys do good work, for the most part, but when you come out in support of a guy who violated national security and got people killed because he got in a fight with his boyfriend, you look like a bunch of idiots.”
Yeah, standing up for a guy, who hasn’t been convicted of a crime, yet is being treated worse then people convicted of violent crimes is idiotic. Have you even thought about how ass backwards your reasoning is? Government should be accountable, but they can torture a guy without at least proving guilt first. That sounds like you really hold them accountable for their actions. WTF.. Lets just do this to all suspects…
Matthew wrote:
“Sorry, but I’ve no sympathy for Manning, what-so-ever. He -knowingly- gave away intelligence data he had no right to give, and is directly responsible for the murder of afgani people who simply wanted to build a country when schoolgirls where not burned alive for the crime of having a vagina.”
Matthew, I have heard this claim parroted endlessly, but I have yet to hear of even a single documented case of someone dying due to a disclosure by WikiLeaks. I would think that if there was such an incident, it would be featured endlessly on TV and in newspapers, would be the talk of the blogosphere, would be all over social networks, and so on. But to the best of my knowledge, it just hasn’t happened.
So put up or shut up. Can you name one, just one, documented case of someone being killed because of a WikiLeaks disclosure? If not, then your comment is dishonest and slanderous.
Come on Guys, Everything Matthew has said has been an honest debate without name calling. You say “put up or shut up” let him defend his position on what he believes in. Should everyone think the same way you do? If he has a good argument and he “for some reason” is able to defend himself on his beliefs. I’ll stand behind him on that until he is proven wrong. I actually give him a lot of credit as everyone is calling him a troll, I think it takes a lot of guts to stand up against Cop-Block fans and assert his position on what is going on.
Most people would move on and never look back at their comments but Matt addressed every single one, Although I don’t agree with Matthew on all his points I do not feel every fan of CopBlock needs to attack him. He is obviously open to comments and criticism and is willing to take time out of his day to respond to people obviously in 2nd grade that like to call him names.
Honestly if every single person that writes a comment here and you disagree with gets trashed, how far is CopBlock going to go? Use it as an educational tool to show the wrongs about police and Government and lets move forward.
Thanks Rob!
Thomas L. Friedman has summed it up in his article “The Big American Leak” in the New York Times about two weeks ago. What has caused more havoc and death now, WikiLeaks disclosures or the decade-long installing and ongoing support of corrupt and undemocratic and two-faced regimes and allies all over the place (e.g. Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden, before they turned traitors and became enemies)? What has caused more damage, inconvenient truths surfacing or US purchase of 28 billion dollars a month!!! oil from the Saudis whose “private donors still constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide… … the very militants our soldiers are fighting” ? Start thinking.
Wow, step out to take care of the honey-do list, and come back to a whole -pile- of love.
I”m going to be polite, and simply put the best possible interpretation on the small mountain of hate I received.
Now, on to replies. I’m on a bit of a time budget ( hey, it’s cristmas, cut me some slack, I’ve got stuff to get in the mail. )
Nathan Johansen – The links to your supporting documentation are greatly appretiated, it saves me a -lot- of time, and allows me to consider your position at length, thank you.
Now the bad news. In the words of Inego Montoya ( my favorite mythical spaniard!) ‘you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.’ after reading your first link, I discover that nowhere at the other end of said link is the paragraph you quoted. In fact, ironically enough, careful reading of the page would imply that the -reverse- of what you posit is true. Not sure what to do with that, on to the next bit.
Your second link, on the other hand, argues your point more strongly. I’ll need to do some legwork on it, to sift out the bullshit ( sturgeon’s law, 90% of everything is bullshit, has never been so true as on the internet…). However, I would argue this. The reason we rely so heavily on airstrikes, and other ‘indirect’ attacks, is the ROE on the ground is suicidally restrictive, and written by people who are more interesting in ‘looking good’ than ‘doing good’. Of course, we used to have an excellent network of informants in afganistan, which allowed us to be much more selective, and hurt fewer people( which is something that’s important to the military ), but some asshole ( wonder who -that- was…) leaked all thier names all over the internet, and now we’re back to doing it the hard way. which means more civilian casualties ( the people who used to tell us who the bad guys were stopped talking to us…) and more military casualties. I’m more concerned about the civilians. We) the military) know we’re sticking our necks on the line, it’s not fair to the civilians, they just want to live in peace.
Jenn – I”m going to say something rude here, but it’s not personal, kay? ‘and if that bitch would just get back in the kitchen, and get me my beer, she wouldnt have no black eye, now would she?’ or, if you will, if Rosa Parks had gotten her uppity ass to the back of the bus, she wouldn’t have been arrested.
Dr. Q- you make a very solid point. I’ll look into it, and get back to you. In the mean time, I will argue Manning has -indirectly- harmed a number of people, for the reasons listed about.
Now, let me give you all something to think about.
Let’s assume there’s a guy working for the FBI, or marshall’s service, or whoever handles witness protection.
let’s assume he releases the entire list of people in witness protection, including where they were, and what thier current names were.
Would you be demanding he be released?
Manning -worked for the government-. As a government employee, he had been given the public trust to hold. He violated that trust, just the same as if he had given the mexican cartels the name and address of every single drug case witness.
In short, the only real difference between manning and a dirty cop is the cop wears a blue uniform, and manning wears a green one. oh, and that whole badge/gun thing.
I would argue that the only reason some of you support him is that he hurt the army. I would also argue that if he wore a badge, and did -the exact same thing-, you’d be howling for his blood.
@ Matthew – so I gather you are unable to respond to my analogies. I can concede on half your points and still set forth a logical argument that Manning is in the right, and you have -
“I”m going to say something rude here, but it’s not personal, kay? ‘and if that bitch would just get back in the kitchen, and get me my beer, she wouldnt have no black eye, now would she?’ or, if you will, if Rosa Parks had gotten her uppity ass to the back of the bus, she wouldn’t have been arrested.”
Or in other words, nothing. Very surprising for someone on the kill Manning/Assange camp. Oh, wait….
It’s about time someone with ball’s took Bradley Manning under their legal wing.
If there is a crime isn’t it being perpetuated and dissected by the media?
If so why are the media immune from prosecution?
The answer is simple.
NO CRIME WAS COMMITTED!
@Matthew take a good hard look at what you are saying, there are so many holes in your arguments.
At least try to research before sprouting on a public forum.
The entire reason the information was leaked is so that the general public could make informed decisions based on current and previous governments inner communication.
If you read your precious american “way to live” historic documentation you will find that the practice of unbiased reporting on the state of the nation is encouraged.
Geoffrey Robinson, the renowned barrister, should take on Bradley’s case purely because it was the source of his client’s alleged illegal activity.
As an Australian I find it deplorable that america is flexing its aged muscle for a fight to protect its ego.
They have been dogging us with rhetoric for far to long.
The sheer arrogance of attitude is displayed throughout america’s history, with misinformation from their numerous spy organizations to starting and perpetuating war for profit and control.
We are, unfortunately, being governed by an insipid government who already has bowed to big business and foreign ownership.
Julian Assange et al have brought this to the public eye the same way one can find recipes for drugs and bombs, the internet.
So @ americans who actually believe that their government is “just swell” grow up.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Dr. Q – this took about 2 minutes to find. and it’s even the NYT.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/taliban-study-wikileaks-to-hunt-informants/
also the phrase ‘afgan informants killed’ typed into google was very informative.
So I’m pretty comfortable with standing on my origional position.
On ya Jenn.
Apparently these “homo ruber collumni” (rednecks) think they can cure war by killing everyone else
Matthew, that article doesn’t contain a single documented case of anyone getting killed due to a WikiLeaks disclosure. Try again.
hm… valid point, Dr. Q… there’s a -lot- of noise about ‘taliban vows to hunt down afgan informers’ but nothing in the ‘taliban actually catches afgan informers.’
I’ll look around, and, as you put it ‘try again’.
Wouldnt hurt if you addressed some of my other points…
Let me make a suggestion, Matthew. Next time you want to convince someone that something is true, start collecting your evidence before trying to make your case, not after.
It’s amazingly dishonest of you to outright claim that Bradley Manning “is directly responsible for the murder of afgani people” when you literally don’t have a shred of evidence that it’s true.
I cannot understand the arrogance of the people that want wikileaks stopped!
Are you comfortable living in an externally created reality?
Dr Q.
So much for being courteous and polite on my end.
I notice you latched on to the -one- claim I made that I am (at the moment) unable to prove. ‘directly responsible’ may have some varience in meaning.
1. killing the ‘bad guys’ and -only- the bad guys requires a lot of intelligence gathering, and communication with locals.
2. Without good intel, it is -probable- that the military will wind up shooting innocent people by mistake.
3. Manning and Assange have broken the entire military intelligence network in afganistan. As a result, the military now has no intel to work with, thus making planning much harder.
4. see point 2 about ‘shooting innocent people by mistake’.
If Manning had not violated his oath, and done his job, we would be killing fewer innocent people in afganistan.
therfore – manning’s distruction of the military’s intel network in afganistan makes him -directly responsible- for the additional innocent civilians.
HAND.
If American soldiers choose to murder innocent people in Afghanistan, I really don’t see how that’s supposed to be Bradley Manning’s fault. It’s the responsibility of the soldiers who actually commit the murders.
To your “typo” Matthew”.
If i believed in any of freud’s work i would call that a freudian slip.
@Matthew: With the UN link I posted, I quoted the PDF of the full report, which is linked at the bottom of the page. Click on the word “english”
Incidentally there is actually a new UN report on women in Afganistan just released that says the situation hasn’t changed in the past year. There’s actually no need to get so deep into data, I’m realizing. Most of the propaganda using women in support of the war includes similar facts – It just tortures the logic. Somehow the fact that women are suffering after a DECADE of US occupation is supposed to be an argument in favor of continuing the occupation. Fucking insanity.
Also, I don’t know if you’re really interested in the facts, Matthew. It’s already obvious that Manning isn’t anything close to a terrorist. I think you hate Manning because you realize his bravery is an indictment of your own cowardice. Not merely the bravery of putting his life on the line, but his courage to live as a moral adult rather than grovel like a child to military daddy-figures.
@Matthew – Everyone has a different opinion about Bradley Manning and we’ll never agree as a whole on what do to about it. Which is why the military shouldn’t be funded by force (some call it taxation). I should be free to disagree with someone in a peaceful way, I shouldn’t be forced to pay for things I’m against – even if I’m wrong.
This wouldn’t be an issue if everyone, regardless of view, had the choice to voluntarily support the military/wars. I know what my choice would be and that’s my business.
Are you ok forcing people to give their hard earned money to an organization that conducts activities you are morally against? Do you see the cycle of violence here? Shouldn’t people be free to spend their money as they see fit? Thoughts?
Guys, I fully support this website and all of you who contribute to it in an effort to hold police accountable for their actions.
HOWEVER, I cannot say I support this post or message. In fact, I believe Bradley Manning should be more harshly punished for his crimes.
As someone who served in the U.S. Marines, I can fully vouch that a military brig, especially a Marine Corps brig, is no dungeon. In fact, you can sleep at almost any time of the day without restriction and most cells are equipped with television. The military takes much better care of their own prisoners than the civilian life does at the county, state and federal levels. So please, this man is probably very bored and might have some remorse, but Marine Corps brigs are certainly not the end of the world.
Additionally, it’s important to note that he is NOT a civilian. The U.S. military has an entirely different set of “laws” known as the UCMJ. He clearly violated these rules and he will be held accountable just as we expect of the police officers who frequently abuse their own power.
So did Bradley Manning abuse his power? Yes.
Should he be held accountable as you all preach (and I agree with)? Yes.
Why is this website defending him? It goes against everything we fight so much for by reading and following your messages.
Does the U.S. Government have secrets? Yes, of course. We all do! Are we entitled to them? Probably, but exposing them to the rest of the world and our enemies at the same time is not the way we should find out.
This individual was disgruntled and in an act of revenge he exposed secrets that will forever damage democracy, the spread of democracy, along with both the GOOD and the BAD qualities of the U.S. Government.
Regardless, I still support CopBlock 110%, but I refuse to believe Bradley Manning did anything that could be remotely considered “Heroic”. This man is practically a spy and should be punished like one.
@Dan in a “democracy” or equality for all, the concept of keeping secrets is fundamentally wrong!
With transparent politics and total accountability being the cornerstone of society, how can you say Brad destroyed democracy??
Indeed those who want to keep little secrets are the murderers of democracy.
The media as a whole are the spreaders of the said documents in larger numbers than the internet, I dont see you asking for one of your media stars heads for spreading the leaks and propagating them.
As for prosecuting a mans who is “practically”a spy your legal system is so chock full of wasted litigation, that in the end Brad will probably have his own talkshow.
Grow up american dudes!
@Dan – thank you for your thoughtful comments and expressing your disagreement. I can’t speak on how the military treats its prisoners, and clearly you would know more about that process. However, “accountability” does not always mean that one must be punished for breaking the law. At copblock, we often document police violating the law in horrific ways. However, we also harshly criticize police who abuse, torture and kill civilians in an unjustified, but LEGAL way.
As such, accountability, at least to me, doesn’t merely involve criticizing illegal activity, but involves the general protest against any kind of abuse of human rights. With this understanding, I believe Bradley Manning was morally correct in leaking the atrocities portrayed in the Wikileaks “Collateral Murder” video. In this scenario, it is the government that must be held accountable; Manning is merely being scapegoated for calling attention to government atrocities. Thus, I do not think support for Manning is inconsistent with our promotion of accountability. We support police who call out other police, or challenge their coworkers for committing abuses. We support police who violate police procedure, the terms of their employment, or even the law in order to reveal corruption or abuse. Similarly, we support Manning’s act of educating the public on what the government has been up to, even if it means he violated rules, regulations, or laws.
I think I will post a more comprehensive argument on the Bradley Manning matter in a short while, and see if I can change your mind.
I just have to say, I love this site. Intelligent people expressing your viewpoints, arguing your points with such logic, it’s a wonder that Matthew House hasn’t connected the dots yet. I think, though, that he knows he doesn’t have a leg to stand on, he’s just grasping for straws at this point.
Carry on, folks…
@House
I’m glad you care about Afghani women so much. You know 92-98% of the world opium supply comes out of Afghanistan, and without that our $trillion pharmaceutical industry is in trouble. I couldn’t really care less if an Afghani girl goes to school or not. I care more that I find less and less products with a “Made in America” stamp; I attribute this directly to people who care more about Afghanis and Iraqis and Lybians than their own countrymen.
I was considering in becoming a supporting member of copblock by watching police in my area given that I am a photographer and am always out shooting anyway. However, after skimming through the website and finding this article, I cannot take part in a website that supports Bradley Manning as a hero. Sure, I agree that prisoner treatment should always be monitored and assessed so that it is being performed in a humane fashion, however, this does not make one a hero. If the US had captured Hitler and tortured him, I would be against the torture, but I would NEVER label him a hero. This outlook makes this entire website come off as a farce. It discredits all that it does in terms of monitoring peoples rights being violated by authorities. It paints this site as simply being anti-authority as opposed to simply being pro-rights. I do support peoples rights and support standing up for your rights, however, I do not support condoning treason.
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