Mark Fiorino Nearly Shot By Philly PD for Open Carrying

Published On March 24, 2011 | By Ademo Freeman | Articles

The above audio was recorded by Mark Fiorino in Philadelphia while on his way to Auto Zone. Mark posted in a PA forum that,

“I was visiting my mother today in Philadelphia to help her around the house and spend time with her. While there, I walked over to the local AutoZone to pick up a part for my car. I was OC due to the (finally) gorgeous weather.

I have learned to always keep my recorder on me and recording when I am in public in Philadelphia, due to the over-zealous nature of the police, and today, I am glad I followed that rule.

As I walked down the street towards the store, I caught a glimpse of a Philadelphia Police cruiser out of the corner of my eye, traveling in the same direction I was.

A few moments later, I hear a vehicle’s transmission roughly slam into “P” very close by.

“Hey, Junior!” comes a voice from the other side of the squad car.

“Junior?!” I replied, as I turned around. I thought to myself, that’s kind of a condescending way to greet someone, isn’t it? As I turned, I prepared to ask the police officer what I could help him with.

It was then that I noticed the officer had his gun trained on my chest.

At least seven officers, 5 squad cars, and a threat of a taser later, I found out what it was like to sit in the back of a paddywagon.”

As I listened to this audio I held my hands to my head, expecting the officer to shoot Mark for refusing to comply with orders. Does anyone else notice how the officer, who has years of training, was the one out of control and that Mark, the ‘regular Joe,’ was the relaxed and reasonable one. Aren’t cops supposed to act like Mark did and the bad guys like that cop was? When did cops start talking like the bad guys? “Get on your Fucking knees or I’ll shoot you!” That’s something bad guys say… Great work Mark, you have some major Cojones, man.

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About The Author

Ademo Freeman is an advocate for a voluntary society, one where people are free to live their lives so long as they don't initiate force on others. Ademo has also been involved with other projects such as the MotorhomeDiaries.com, FreeKeene.com and LibertyOnTour.com You can get more content created by Ademo at his Facebook page and YouTube channel. Enjoy Ademo's post/work? Want to show him your gratitude, simply click here. Thanks in advance for your support, it's greatly appreciated.
  • http://paforliberty.com Andrew

    This is disgusting. The Philadelphia police department is once again running amuck!

    Mark, I hope justice is served and those involved lose their jobs. That is no way to handle an encounter on their part!

  • Jonny

    Not a smart move to argue with anyone who has a gun trained on you. I have seen numerous videos of encounters with these open carriers. They are all the same way, Argumentative. Now the person with the firearm sounds like a complete idiot here.

    He should have just complied , and then taken it up with Internal Affairs or the proper complaint process later.

  • Guy Fawkes

    I think Mark mad a potentially fatal mistake arguing with the cop about getting on his knees. I don’t blame him for not wanting to, it sounds like there may have been dirt or mud where he was, but having “I was right” on your tombstone doesn’t help matters. Once a cop has his gun drawn it is ALWAYS better to fight it out with them in court after they arrest you. That cop seemed sure of himself that open carry even with a permit was not legal, with his gun drawn Mark wasn’t going to score any debating points or be let go. The right reply to the cop was a little later, when Mark asked if he was being arrested and then said he had nothing further to say. I’m not saying Mark wasn’t legally right, I don’t know Philly gun laws. Gun laws vary widely, some states REQUIRE open carry, while others actually do require that you carry the gun concealed if you have a permit for it. Again, I don’t know what Philly’s is but you are NOT going to win any arguments with a cop pointing a gun at you. Another thing, the purpose of gun laws is gun CONTROL, which means the state is using a permit system to minimise the amount of people who own firearms, in most states just handguns, in a jackass state like Massachusetts, all firearms. The police may use the “resisting officer” charge to yank Marks permit, another reason not to argue with cops in the street over a gun issue. I know my opinion won’t be popular here, but I really don’t want to read that some other person who followed Marks example and argued with a cop who had a gun pointed at him wound up shot to death. Again, once the cops have a gun drawn on you, no matter how in the right you are, save the arguments for the judge.

  • Ben McManus

    Anyone whom can legally own a firearm in the commonwealth can openly carry, on foot, with the exception of court facilities, federal buildings, motor vehicles and cities of the first class (Philadelphia)—— Copied from a PA gun rights site—-This dude is screwed, unfortunate he didn’t google the law first. This guy was recording before the cop called him “Junior”, as bad as the cops can be, goating them doesn’t serve any purpose, he had to have known this would cause an issue and was recording before being approached, come on…

  • Rob

    Ben you lost me, I just looked up the law and if you have a license you may open carry in a car and in public so I don’t see how a law was broken. (http://paopencarry.org/) And he was recording “whatever” before the cop approached him which is also legal. Since his intent was not to secretly record, he can easily show in court that a gun was drawn on him and he was not allowed to shut the audio recording off, not a violation of the wiretapping laws as you have to show that he intended to secretly record and that didn’t happen in this case. Unless you have a different view or thought on it?

  • Ben McManus

    I don’t think the recording was illegal, at all. I do find it suspicious he was recording “whatever”, like hey I’m going to audio record my walk to Auto Zone? Come on, not likely.

    The quote I posted was from paopencarry.org, in the Q&A section under “Is open carry legal in PA?”

    And maybe there is misleading info. If these cops were wrong, they should be nailed ot the wall, I’m just not a subscriber to “cops always wrong, gun toter always right” Sometimes people like to just stir the pot, and I do think that is what this guy was doing. He went looking for trouble and found it, right or wrong.

  • Connal

    Ben, I personally record every time I go out and OC. Mark, is one of the few of us who happen to live in a city where the cops don’t care about rights. He fights the good fight, and follows all applicable laws. The way the officers in that area treat him, is disgusting, and they should be barred from ever carrying a badge again.

  • Scott

    The “oh, shit!” moment when they realize they’re being recorded *almost* makes up for the blood boiling in my veins right now.

  • Jeremy2141

    If you read more on the link to the forum, the victim says he was released afterwards with all his property. He says he recorded from when he stepped out of his front door, several minutes earlier, before he had a cop call him.
    I have no idea how he remained that calm while someone was threatening to “fucking shoot” him.

  • jason borne

    This guy keeps going out looking for a fight all the time. One of these days he is going to get his LTCF yanked based on the character clause or his life cut short. He is fueled by a bunch of knuckleheads on a website. What kinda idiot walks around OC all the time but NEVER goes to the range ? He wants the ability to protect himself , but never shoots the damn gun. He is a POSER, A WANNABE
    It is amazing the shit this goof will post all over the web and thinks no one can figure it out.

    http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/MDJReport.aspx?district=MDJ-38-1-13&docketNumber=CR-0000104-05

    http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/MDJReport.aspx?district=MDJ-38-1-13&docketNumber=NT-0000667-05

    http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/MDJReport.aspx?district=MDJ-38-1-28&docketNumber=NT-0000501-09

    http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/CPReport.aspx?docketNumber=CP-46-SA-0000941-2009

    There is a bunch of traffic also . A real winner here folks !!!!

    http://vipergts.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96#/d4pu5d

    http://vipergts.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=120#/d3l9ns (never served a day in his life)

    http://vipergts.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=120#/d3kx4y ( yet another lie, never made it in due to bad psych eval)

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:C7ksNjmMcygJ:vipergts.deviantart.com/%3Foffset%3D130+mark+fiorino+viper+gts+army&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com ( comments are priceless )

  • http://GeorgeDonnelly.com George Donnelly

    I want to organize a call flood to Philly PD and city government about this. Connect with me on facebook to organize, if someone else isn’t already.

    http://www.facebook.com/george.donnelly

  • Das Ram

    @Ben,

    Are you deliberately mis-stating the facts? I have to ask, because you have been corrected more than once and you keep insisting you are right – kind of like the ignorant police officer.

    § 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
    No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
    such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
    such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

    Maybe you are refusing to see the word “unless:”

    Whatever causes your blindness, doesn’t matter. It is simply a sign of the times for many ignorant and belligerent people to pick and choose, as well as omit which parts of which laws they would like to utilize in defending their position.

    Kind of like every city and state legislature who choose to deny rights to citizens and should be jailed for their deliberate infraction of the Second Amendment, specifically where it states, “Shall Not Be Infringed.”

    The “dude” isn’t screwed – we all are because of people like you. It will only lead to harmful engagements in this country, such as another Civil War.

    I do wonder who will be the first Liberty Candidate to resurrect the Tranquility Clause and shut a bunch of nonsense down.

  • Mark F

    @jason borne – wow, what is your problem, man? Do you work for the Philly Police, or did I somehow piss you off personally? Your brand of vitriol only comes from someone who’s either mentally deranged or out of his sane mind with some vengeful emotion. Let me guess, you have a squeaky clean criminal record, right? As well as everyone else who is an average American and human, who makes mistakes now and again and learns from them?

    Not to mention, your little tidbits about me are wretchedly incorrect – to address a couple of them -

    (1) I do in fact go to the range on a regular basis, and here is a little proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol91RTeIbjA – this is the only of many range trips this year alone that I recorded any part of.

    (2) What is it that you think I “wannabe”? I mean, aside from someone who can obey the law and not be attacked by the police for exercising my rights as an American?

    (3) I did not fail entry to the military because of a Psychiatric Evaluation – in fact, I was sent home on a medical discharge two weeks into basic training because I had what’s called a Chiari Malformation of the brain – look it up. You seem to be good at that.

  • http://paforliberty.com Andrew

    you can send in citizen complaints to the Philadelphia Police Department at:
    http://www.phillypolice.com/forms/official-complaint-form/

  • TM

    If only Rosa parks had just sat in the back, didn’t she know that she could’ve been hurt. Don’t those Selma protesters know that they caused a whole bunch of problems, and for what, civil rights? Is a little bit of liberty and freedom worth all the commotion caused by their actions. It wasn’t an over-reaction by the police, they were just protecting iand serving. It was really the fault of those protesters who were marching. They should’ve wrote a letter, or filed a copmplaint with the Alabama Dept of Justice , that would’ve been the smart thing to do, then they wouldn’t have caused all that suffering. they asked for it right?

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

    So much of the history of the struggle between good and evil can be explained by Edmund Burke’s observation. Time and again those who profess to be good seem to clearly outnumber those who are evil, yet those who are evil seem to prevail far too often. Seldom is it the numbers that determine the outcome, but whether those who claim to be good men are willing to stand up and fight for what they know to be right.

  • John D

    Another military washout from a “brain problem” . Classic

  • Average Joe

    After listening to the audio I can say that there was wrong done on both sides. The cops could use a lesson in common courtesy and there was NO CAUSE to threaten to shoot and kill when there was no clear threat to the officer.
    That being said, Mark should have taken into account the city he was in, now I will admit I do not know the law regarding open carry but I do know that gun violence against the police has been at an all time high in the last few years. If you insist on carrying you should have concealed it unless you were openly seeking the confrontation you got.
    This should have been handled VERY differently on both sides of the fence. This is a perfect example of how a tense situation can explode and result in a fatality.
    Moving forward I hope you have learned that you should have complied with the officers demands and fight it out later in court if you are in-fact in the right. You got lucky the officer stayed his hand, next time you might just end up in a body bag and for what?

  • John Q. Galt

    Someone @copblock geotag Ben’s ip addy. Bet it’s located in downtown Philly.

  • John Qsukadikup

    I bet it isn’t

  • Jason B

    Whats wrong twinkle toes, now that you have been exposed ALL over the internet, all your pathetic depressed ramblings, and comments relating to your PSYCH discharge ( BTW, did you disclose that on your LTCF app and FFL forms when purchasing your firearms?) Did you NOT think people are going to dig up your pathetic past and bring it to light? Bet you can’t erase all those posts where you openly ADMIT to taking pain meds to be cool, while walking around all fucked up with your gun…. Oh that’s right, when called out about it, you recanted and said how you were exaggerating to sound cool …. You have a few loose screws dude , and one of these days , it is going to get you tuned up.

  • Mark F

    @Jason B: They see you trollin’ – you hatin’…

    Get your facts straight, man. You’re making yourself look like a real tool.

    Except you’re not, because you’re hiding behind the anonymity of the internets. ;) Good job!

  • Mike

    @TM

    The Rosa Parks incident was staged. Just like this they were trying to create a conflict. She was part of the NAACP trying to create a conflict so it could become national news.

    Mark carries a recorder because he is waiting for conflict. Instead of complying with the officers instructions he argues. He tells the officer he is not going to comply with his orders. I don’t know the local laws so I don’t know if the officer was right or wrong.

    If your going to open carry you know it’s going to make people uncomfortable and they are going to call the police. The police are put in a tough position. Mark knows this and that is why he records. He’s trying to make himself out to be a victim.

  • Mike

    Oh yeah, If there is a lawsuit anything mark posts online will lock him into a statement. Anything he posts could look bad for him in court.

  • IceTrey

    The Rosa Parks incident was not staged and she WAS sitting in the back of the bus. At that time they had a movable placard designating the colored area that attached to the back of the seats. When there were more blacks than whites they’d move the placard forward to provide more seating. If more whites they’d move it back and so forth. Parks was sitting in the first seat in the designated black section. It was when a white man ordered her to give up her seat that she objected.

  • Uriel

    McManus,
    YOU googled the law; but obviously couldn’t READ it.

  • Ben McManus

    Here, I’ll give you the whole link from which I got my info, http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#1

    I understand that on this website, 2 different answers are goven, but this page clearly says its not okay.

    Anyone whom can legally own a firearm in the commonwealth can openly carry, on foot, with the EXCEPTION of court facilities, federal buildings, motor vehicles and cities of the first class (Philadelphia)

    Those person possessing a valid License to Carry Firearms are also permitted to carry openly (or concealed) while in a VEHICLE and in cities of the first class.

    Please continue to read this over and over until which time you know the meaning of the words “EXCEPTION” and “VEHICLE”.

    I admit there is contradictory info, I also admit you are an idiot. I still think this guy is an idiot. It’s like when I see people cross the road at a crosswalk without looking. Sure it’s legal, they have the right-of-way, but will it really matter when you’re struck my a 2,000 pound vehicle? Is being right everything? Maybe for some…..

  • Ed

    18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6109 Licenses
    (a) Purpose of license.–A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one’s person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

    18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6108 Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia
    No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
    (1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
    (2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106 of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

    I read this to be that in Philadelphia, you can only carry a firearm on the street if you have a license and that a license in Pennsylvania allows you to carry a concealed firearm on you or in your vehicle. If I am reading this correctly, I do not believe you can openly carry a firearm in Philadelphia because you cannot carry without a license and a license is only for carrying a firearm concealed on or about one’s person or in a vehicle. However, I believe that you can carry a firearm openly in other parts of the state.

  • Mark F

    @Ed – while I do understand your train of logic, it is flawed in a fundamental way. The definition of an LTCF is for the purpose of carrying a concealed firearm, which is uniform across the state. This means that unconcealed, open carry, is -unregulated-. Because the exception to this rule is a blanket law that covers ALL modes of carry, both concealed and unconcealed, and makes no differentiation between the two, -and- because the exception to THIS exception is to have an LTCF, you can safely extrapolate that having an LTCF makes you exempt from the exception – therefore, there are no restrictions on a citizen who carries the License because it defaults back to the State’s authority.

  • WHAT AN IDIOT

    This clown needs to run over to his little open carry website and get hos ego stroked from his online pals. He is begging for information on how to justify himself here why oc is legal.

    News flash neon warrior, you had better have your shit straight and smelling like roses if you want to play with the big dogs. You don’t even know the very laws of your commonwealth that you are fighting against.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/131087-why-open-carry-legal-philadelphia-according-law.html

    epic failure

  • SGT

    My girlfriend did two tours in IRAQ , and you couldn’t even last two weeks in basic …HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

  • Mark F

    Actually, “Idiot,” I do, I was just trying to simplify it for your twelve little brain cells. However, it’s not easy to simplify that which is already written in fourth-grade English in the state law. So…enjoy being wrong.

    @SGT – You might be right. Except that has absolutely nothing to do with anything about this conversation whatsoever.

  • Ben McManus

    Seems the main issue with these anarchist groups is that they see everything in black and white, they are always right, the establishment is always wrong, let me tell you, nothing is absolute, including your freedom or life, enjoy one or the other being taken away very soon, on a bright note, everyone in prison is an anarchist.

    FYI, I don’t disagree with anarchist principles, just those that pretend to follow them.

  • lemmingz

    The comments sections reveals numerous fallacies. One commenter suggests that they don’t know whether the police or the open-carrier was right in this matter, and presumably they mean “whether or not the police were following and enforcing the law or not”. This is precisely the problem. The tendency for people to judge the validity of actions based on their ‘legality’ is illogical and the root of many of our problems. Law as it exists is just the aggregate of arbitrary codes deemed as merited by the state and its’ enforcers. In other words, appealing to the law as the source of the validity of the law is circular and thus illogical.

    I hope that people will consider the content of the incident rather than jump to conclusions about the legitimacy of the open-carrier based on the possibility that what he may have done is ‘illegal’. The law is illegitimate, the police are corrupt, the state is oppressive and tyrannical. No amount of fancy documents, rituals, and cloth will change that.

  • Ben McManus

    It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out in court, if it goes there.

    My opinion and only my opinion is that the cops and Mark both acted foolishly and childishly. After a bit more reading, its unclear that Mark was purely in the right, although it’s leaning towards the thought that he was, I can admit that even after some of the exchanges above.

    Where he messed up, not complying with police orders (come on, do you want to die?), resisting arrest (that’s what they will call it in court), and truthfully, if you are tape recording your walk to Auto Zone, you are looking for trouble, you aren’t tape recording in case you hear a great street performer.

    The cops; well, IMHO you don’t talk to citizens that way, you are being paid to do a job, paid by the same guy you’re cursing at and ordering to the ground. Even though the tard was arguing, he was doing so peacefully and a conversation could have been had with all persons standing on their own two feet. Even if he was in the wrong, it was clear he did not think he was breaking the law and you don’t treat someone that way just for being an idiot. I do however realize they are a target on the streets and have to act that way to survive, you can criticize them if you want, but it will fall on deaf ears unless you have walked a mile in their shoes. Unless you have been in a position to have been fired upon, you cannot imagine.

    To the rest of you (really just the attackers on here), if you can’t be open to others ideas, you will fail, at life, at improving gun laws, at everything, shut your mouth and open your ears, you’ll be amazed at the improvement.

    Someone once said to me, if I can’t carry my gun, I’m not going. To which I replied, if I have to carry a gun, I’m not going. I am a supporter of gun rights, always have been, always will be, but I am staunchly opposed to stupidity. More than likely, there is a lawmaker in Philly looking to change that law now to make it clearly illegal to OC in Philly. Congratulations.

  • Mark F

    Fair enough, Ben. I can’t say that I made all the wisest decisions during the encounter, but it’s clear that the behavior of the officers involved is simply out of control and inappropriate. If that’s the way they behave when under no pressure
    at all, I would hate to see how they operate in hostile territory.

    I also wanted to address one thing you mentioned. You said, “I do however realize they are a target on the streets and have to act that way to survive”. Although I agree with the fact that police officer are targets simply because they are police officers, I wish I could tell you the last time a “target” jumped out in front of me and yelled for my attention while simultaneously threatening my life, aside from under circumstances where shooting that target dead would land me in jail for the rest of my life, or with a needle in my arm.

  • Smarter

    These open carry guys act this way get this response from cops. I am pro 2nd amendment as they come but these open carry idiots threaten everyone’s rights. Furthermore, open carry is tactically advertising, “Please steal my gun Mister Felon.”

  • Brian

    I used to work with this guy and seems he carried a camera ( in his truck )and audio recorder with his open carry gun where ever he goes. He had this situation before where he lost his other gun. This may be his third time now not sure. Seems to me your asking for trouble Mark by continuely doing open carry in Philly, seems you have a vendetta. I know you have rights but your attitude and judement are going get you killed brother. If your trying to make a statement go about it smarter and if your trying to get a nice lawsuit / freebie courtesy of the philadelphia govt um yeah. Your only going to tarnish your name if you keep doing this and I’m sure a few federal or state employees have an eye on you now. Use good judgement….Brian

  • kurt

    This guy sounds like an idiot. Why the hell would you argue with a cop who has a gun trained on you? In Philadelphia it is NOT legal to open carry.

  • Mark F

    @kurt – Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion, when the law has been explained multiple times here in the contrary? Are you confusing Philadelphia with another city in a different state or country?

    @Brian – You used to work with me and were terminated in part because you were ineffective and unprepared to do your job – the difference between you and I is that I am prepared to protect myself should something happen to me. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

    @Smarter – I’m sorry you feel that way. The Open Carry Movement has been gaining steam, and has been proven to help liberate people’s rights as a result. So, please, if you have nothing accurate or useful to say, keep it to yourself.

  • Brian

    Brian – You used to work with me and were terminated in part because you were ineffective and unprepared to do your job << Have no idea why you added this or what it proves, but read next….

    I supposedly had a passion for other things Mark. We all know that :-). I also had a client want me to be there IT support as well from that job so I must have been doing something right. However it would have been disrespectful to take the job. No matter I'm head of IT at a 20 million plus company as of now. Blah Blah Blah

    – the difference between you and I is that I am prepared to protect myself should something happen to me. Perhaps you should take your own advice.

    As far as protecting myself I use to be a bailbonds man back in the day and also use to ring fight so I can def take care of myself you follow me. If you want to step in the ring sometime to see lemme know be more then happy to ;-)

    I'm not here to argue or mention flying disks… but i think you need to mature a bit, just dont want to see you on the front page of the news dead. But i have to agree our rights are being taken away slowly.

  • kurt

    @ Brian well said. I definitely agree with our rights being taken away slowly. Actions like the video above do not help us keep our rights. I don’t think the cop was professional calling Mr. Fiorino “junior” from the start, but Mark surely could’ve been more cooperative with the officer. Battles like this are for the court room, not a Philly street. Mark is lucky worse didn’t happen. Shit like this hurt our right to carry….

  • http://none Simonoff

    Mark A A. Fiorino is a nut. Who would not do what you are being instructed to with the Police. If they are wrong, do what they say and deal with it later. This Fiorino is a typical open carry nut. All gun owners are hurt by nuts like him.

  • shamrock

    Mark claims to have Chiari malformations of the brain? Look at the symptoms of this disorder and tell me if that’s someone who you want walking around the city with a weapon strapped to his hip. I certainly don’t.

    Chiari malformations (CMs) are structural defects in the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls balance. When the indented bony space at the lower rear of the skull is smaller than normal, the cerebellum and brainstem can be pushed downward. The resulting pressure on the cerebellum can block the flow of cerebrospinal fluid (the liquid that surrounds and protects the brain and spinal cord) and can cause a range of symptoms including dizziness, muscle weakness, numbness, vision problems, headache, and problems with balance and coordination.

  • shamrock

    Furthermore, you refer to the officers as being under “no pressure at all”. How do you know what pressure a police officer feels when he is face to face with an unknown person with a weapon? For all they know you might draw and fire on them in an instant. Secondly, I’d like to see you attempt this stunt walking down a street in North Philadelphia where your unconcealed weapon might have caught the eye of someone who knows how valuable a gun is to someone who otherwise is not permitted to buy one. You might have ended up as a stain on the sidewalk and a slab in the morgue.

  • Joe Cass

    I know Philly cops may be heavy handed; the reason is buttwipes with guns. Forino put other lives in jeopardy for his own agenda. I’ll die for your constitutional rights. but I won’t have my kids die because this a-hole wants to promote a cause.

  • Julielu

    I bet she did them on her back too. How’s that for funny?

    SGT says:
    March 28, 2011 at 6:51 am
    My girlfriend did two tours in IRAQ , and you couldn’t even last two weeks in basic …HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

  • John

    I would have shot you. Cops have to deal with lying troublemakers like you all day everyday, along with all the murders, drug dealers and rapists. Why don’t you go walk through west philly with a gun in the middle of the night, then you can tape record them saving your life, you pussy

  • destardi

    Joe Cass say
    ———

    BS. You’re not willing to die for anyone’s constitutional rights, because that “cause” Mark is defending here IS OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

    Freakin cop didn’t even know his own city’s allowances.

    What a damn joke, fire the incompetent gas bag.

  • destardi

    shamrock says:
    ————–

    1) If you can’t handle pressure, and be trusted to make calm, professional decisions as you’re supposedly trained to do, you shouldn’t be a cop. aka, can’t take the heat, get out of kitchen

    2) From what I’ve heard, just walking in Philadelphia is enough for a person to end up “as a stain on the sidewalk and a slab in the morgue”, sans gun.

    Get a clue. People actually attacking this Mark guy are completely utterly traitors to American history.

    I bet you’d have argued the same way, against the American revolutionaries who fought against the British.

  • billmc

    To those Americans who say people should just comply with abusive cops, letting them physically and verbally abuse people because they don’t like someone exercising their legal right to carry a firearm, you should be ashamed of yourselves. No true American I know would ever say such a thing. Only a subjugated coward would suggest you should get on your knees and bury your face in the dirt simply because a power-tripping thug in a uniform told you too. At the very least, you should be demonstrating in the street to put an end to this type of tyranny. At what point would you say you should not comply with a cop’s orders? At what point would you say enough is enough? Would you lick the cop’s boots if he told you to? Would you eat dog crap if he told you to? It’s cowards like you that allowed a cadre of vicious, evil, low-life thugs to get away with murdering and torturing millions of people in Nazi-occupied Europe. You don’t deserve to call yourselves Americans. You’re nothing but soft, spoiled, weak-kneed, whimpering cry-babys, with your cheap video games and reality TV, compared to the ‘real’ Americans that fought and died fighting for freedom in WWII.

  • billmc

    Don’t think i dislike all cops. I actually respect most police officers. Why? Because most know the laws they are sworn to uphold and act like professionals in doing so. This pathetic excuse for a policeman did not. He either did not know the law or he let his personal likes and dislikes cloud his judgement when exercising his sworn duty as a police officer. Both he and a number of the other officers behaved very unprofessionally in their dealings with this individual. Why would some police officers be surprised that most decent people would lose respect for them after hearing such abusive, profanity-laced language like we heard in this recording? We expect this kind of talk from low-life criminals – not police officers! This officer and some of his fellow-officers clearly wanted to force respect through power, authority and fear. Sorry but that’s the kind of mentality used in police states – not the USA!

    Your first reaction to police should be to show them respect. But once an officer demonstrates that he or she does not know the law, or chooses to ignore it based on their own personal biases, then covers it up by going on a power-trip while resorting to abusive, foul-mouthed language, they shouldn’t be surprised when someone doesn’t immediately show them much respect. When it comes to public servants like the police, respect is first assumed and then it must be earned. This officer demonstrated all too clearly that – right or wrong – he is the master and you, as the servant, will do as you’re told or else. Any cop who acts like that does not deserve the respect normally due a police officer. They do not have the mental control or professional demeanor to work as a police officer, and they besmirch the badge and the uniform. It doesn’t matter if he felt threatened. He is supposed to follow the law and, like it or not, this open carrier was not breaking the law. Police officers cannot let personal feelings or biases influence their duties as public servants. If they are too afraid of being shot, then they should not be working as police officers.

  • MonkMan

    Totally ignorant, dangerous, insulting and unprofessional cops.

    Glad I don’t live in Philadelphia!!!

  • http://etorrents.org john.smith

    “Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right – a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so many of the territory as they inhabit.” – Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848.

    Looks like the rest of the country needs to follow in the footsteps of Alaska and Arizona-Constitutional Carry! Vote out that Philly DA, re-train the Police and if all else fails, file a Federal Civil Rights Violation case against the DA, the un-trained Cops and Philly! But, do not collect money as the reward, instead make those involved carry sandwich signs 8 hours a day for one year admitting thier guilt…. “I am a former city employee that violated the civil rights of an American Citizen” … in public!!

  • pearl

    I am shocked by the number of so-called Americans who will ACTUALLY say,”everybody should just follow the orders of a cop, right or wrong, if they don’t want to be shot”. Have any of you people EVER read American history? This is how tyranny is achieved, by giving the state unlimited power in any form, you destroy all individual rights. This is all it takes to turn America into a totalitarian state – that is exactly what you sheep have done.

  • JG

    Situations like this are the precise reason why the founders gave us the right to keep and bear arms. It was not to protect against foreign invaders, and it was not to hunt for food or protect ourselves against criminals, though all those things are factors. The purpose of arming our civilization was to allow people to protect themselves from their government. Think about it, our constitutional rights were written by a group of people rebelling against tyranny. They predicted that even their form of government, the best one invented to date, would succumb to corruption because they knew most people are power grubbing little slimeballs. They constantly stated that tyranny should be shaken off, overthrown, stamped out, and then they gave us guns. Hitler took away guns, then rights, and then lives. Don’t expect that just because we’re in the USA that the sequence of events would be any different.

  • Deacon

    Mark F. is a dead man walking.
    Kinda weird that you are so alledgedly smart about the law, and so amazingly stupid about common sense. If someone tries to rob you, just give them the $20, $30 in your pocket, and call the police.
    Really dude! Come on man!
    Keep referring to the law, and you being “right” and your poor old mother and all your friends will just be saying “woulda, shoulda coulda” at your funeral, “but he was right”. If you want to die just stick that gun in your mouth, and save everybody alot of grief. Police officers in Philly are scared to death about guns on the street. If i was your friend or brother mother etc. I would not go any where with you carrying that death sentence on your hip At some point you need to realize this debate is less about the law, and more about, What a PHucking stupid fool you are. Someone, be it a street criminal who see’s your OC as a challenge, or a police officer whose commands you disobey,(phucking stupid again)while carrying a loaded weapon. The law, is almost insignificant because of your “phucking moronic, idiotic, antagonistic behavior towards the general public, and most importantly the police. Smart money is on your demise before you reach the age of 15.
    YRMF

  • Deacon

    Yo dude, I just listened to the audio of that incident. the first thing out of your mouth was said in an aggressive way as if you were insulted. You were walking around waiting for some shit to pop off. You even said you were not going to argue with him, and that is all you did was argue. you even said im not giving you lip, when in fact there is 15 minutes of you giving lip. . The first time you asked him a question he answered it for you right away. Unlike you, all you did was resist. The officer even said we will straighten this out in a minute if you do have proper documents and you still remained defiant. the officer asked you repeatedly to do something that you refused to do while you possesed a loaded weapon and had umpteen guns pointed at you. Clearly you were starting trouble, im sure some of those officers were thinking this guy wants us to shoot him, Haven’t you ever heard of suicide by cop. When the police ask you to do something you need to do it. It is people like you that make police job even harder, when you act like a criminal but really aren’t, you make the police think you are a threat, what do you think they are going to do. These guys run around town ducking bullets from bad guys all day long,and you sit around inventing ways to get up the ire of the police. You, Mr. Fiorini, are a phucking A’hole, right or wrong.

    YRMF

  • Jason

    Mark,
    Hope things go well for you in court on both days, please post a followup when they happen. Sgt. Dougherty was out of his element, he wasn’t sure what the law was and it was a tense situation for him. You seemed to do what you could to de-escalate the situation. He did sound rather off balance and I’m glad you didn’t get perforated in the encounter.

    @John,
    The US Constitution doesn’t expire at sunset so day or night, lawful carry is lawful carry. Officers do get jaded though, having to deal mostly with the problems of society. Regular citizens don’t often thank an Officer for doing their job or even say ‘have a nice day.’ Its a crappy job usually and they have to stay on their toes and their education should be mandatory and paid for.

  • MPG

    This punk was on a mission to create problems…otherwise why the recorder? I agree with another comment, walk your badass down the middle of a street in West Philly after dark with that gun exposed. Your spineless ass probably wouldn’t make it 2 blocks before either you’re a stain in the street or calling 911, sobbing like a little bitch.

    If you’re such a tough guy, join the PPD. Then you can see what BS they have to put up on a daily basis (including dealing with idiot douche bags like you). But wait, if you couldn’t make more than 2 weeks in basic training, you couldn’t make a pimple on a cops ass. I have been a NRA member for many years, but assholes like you are THE ONES who stir up the shit and ruin it for us NORMAL people. YOU SUCK!

    Concealed carry is meant for smart, logical thinking people….neither of which you are, DUMMY. All you are doing is making yourself look like a dumb ass…..it’s working VERY well.

    Grow up, get a life and GO AWAY……you little pussy piece of shit.

  • Dr. Q

    Two men are open carrying firearms. One is minding his own business and does not draw his weapon or threaten anyone with it. The other draws his gun on the second person and threatens to murder him. And yet some people will actually side with the second person as long as that individual is wearing a blue costume.

    That’s astounding.

  • MPG

    Dr. Q, you my friend are extremely ignorant…….DUH

  • Jason

    Yes, yes, you are extremely ignorant…. Okay, I’m guessing we’re into the left coast timezone.

    See, if you don’t have much to add, merely try and lash out at your opponent, MPG, you must have been awesome on the debate team.

    Why the recorder, well, lets see, what might have happened without it? I am under the impression that all officers should have cameras to keep them honest and protect them from false accusations. Mark here had other run ins with the PD from the sounds of it, what better than to have an electronic witness. If we could just bbq more of the career criminals, the PD wouldn’t have anything to be terrified of now would they?

  • http://EdMekulikIsAPussy.com EdMekulik

    WTF! He complied or else he would have been shot.

    You can even hear the officer speaking with his superior stating, “he said that he has a license and can what ever he wants”. Never did I hear that. Mark stated that he has a permit and can open carry in PA.

    Then the police state the he is recording this and trying to set them up. No where in the recordings of the officers do I hear dispatch saying that someone called PD to arrive at the scene due to an individual OCing. The officer arrived on his own accord. Guess what, PD is going to play this off as entrapment.

  • BDub

    Walk through North Philly with your open carry bullshit. See how that goes.

  • Pingback: Out of control Phily police…… « Jakethon

  • Deacon

    “OPEN CARRY BULLSHIT” Thats what im saying BDUB. for some reason people are focused on the law, instead of reality. No one is arguing that he was allowed to OC.
    Yo EDMEK he did not comply with the first request, the second 3rd, 4th 5th 6th,(do i need to go on) it took several minutes and numerous officers with guns, pointing at him, for him to comply. M.F.Purposely escalated the situation, you actually have to give the police alot of credit for their restraint in “NOT” bustin’ a cap in his ass.(right or wrong) As far as the officer arriving on his own accord, obviously he was on patrol looking for people of suspicious nature. That is their job. I would think someone carrying a gun is probable cause. When officer Gallagher said “HEY Junior” you can clearly hear the confrontational tone from Mark F. He even admitted, that he felt disrespected when the officer initially called out to him.
    (read the opening statement on this page)
    Anybody who is trying to make a case for M.F. is only showing their own stupidity and lack of basic common sense. The law is not the issue here.
    If you truly believe, that it is ok to walk around OC, on Frankford ave. in Philadelphia, and no one should be allowed to approach you, or ask you about your weapon, then you are beyond reason.
    Really!!!
    YRMF

  • Deacon

    Yo Mark F. almost forgot ‘em.
    LMK if you got those.

  • http://jackbootedliberal.com Joshua

    Average Joe writes: “I do know that gun violence against the police has been at an all time high in the last few years.”

    The numbers do not support this. There have been a few high-profile cases recently, and there has been an increase in recent years, but historically, the rate of gun violence against police is shockingly low.

    “In truth, on-the-job police fatalities have dropped nearly 50 percent during the last 20 years, even as the total number of cops has doubled. According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 279 cops were killed on the job in 1974, the worst year on record. That number steadily decreased to just 116 in 2009. The leading cause of death for cops on duty is car accidents, not violence. For the last several years, the number of officers intentionally killed on the job each year has ranged from 45 to 60, out of about 850,000 cops on the beat. That makes police officers about 50 percent more likely to be intentionally killed than the average American. But contrary to Sheriff Smith’s claim, the job isn’t among the 10 most dangerous in the country, let alone the “the top five,” even if you include officers unintentionally killed in traffic accidents.”

    http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/31/the-anti-cop-trend-that-isnt

  • RJ

    There sure are a lot of un-American freedom hating posters here. Makes me think I wandered into the liberal Huffy-Kos zone. Where people believe it’s OK that a citizen minding their own business, walking down the street, breaking no laws, get a gun pointed at them and threatened with being shot and killed. And in this reality, the guy breaking no laws is an idiot, is setting up the police, is a smart ass for knowing his rights (when the “law officer” doesn’t).

    The Philadelphia Weekly put out a story yesterday on this topic. Command officers admit that pretty much no one in the Philly PD knows that open carry is legal in their city, with a permit. Even the Lt. in charge of their gun permit section admitted that she didn’t know that open carry with a permit was legal and that they were still handing out documents saying that all guns must be concealed, even though the law changed in 1995.
    I guess maybe Mark was pushing it, only giving the Philly PD 16 years to tip off their street cops that what he was doing is legal.

    The folks who think the cops did anything right in this incident are apparently the same people that would love to see the Second Amendment abolished. Even the back up officers, who had a chance to behave professionally even though they got pulled into this by a Sgt. who didn’t know the law, behaved unprofessionally.

    For those who don’t like open carry, don’t do it. In over 40 years of carrying concealed, I’ve only open carried 2 or 3 times. But I understand that many states, like PA, have made open carry legal. And that means that those without a carry permit are entitled to exercise the Second Amendment rights by legally open carrying. If you don’t like that, just be up front that you’d like the Second Amendment abolished and do your best to make sure that only the cops and the criminals have guns. Admit that your goal is to ensure that law abiding citizens are not going to have the means to protect and defend themselves from those who don’t obey the law.

    That is all.

  • Daddy’s Bullet

    So, this punk Mark had “other run ins” with the police…..what does that tell any reasonable thinking person? It tells me that he’s a pompous little fuck that needs to be taught a lesson. Mr. “I have a license to carry”……..ya, you’re a real badass aren’t you? Did your Daddy give you ONE bullet, that you carry in your pocket?

    Quit trolling for a conflict and act like you’re a MAN! Also, quit trolling for someone to sue…White Trash!

    You’ve managed to make yourself look like a total asshole! Sell the gun and give your Daddy back his bullet….Pussy Boy.

  • RN

    I’m a girl. I have guns. I have a license to carry a firearm (LTCF). I cherish my right to own & carry a firearm. I cherish my right to carry my firearm(s) openly or concealed. I chose to carry my firearm concealed at all times, because I would prefer to surprise an attacker with my firearm. Everywhere I go, my firearm is concealed.
    For all of you retards, that obviously can’t understand the laws, I have broken it down to a 3rd grade level. I know how to break things down to a 3rd grade level, because I am a Registered Nurse. Because I have an RN license, I have been specially trained to break difficult information down to a 3rd grade level, to ensure you receive proper treatment & understand all of your options. Here goes:

    In the state of PA, a license to carry a firearm (LTCF) means that you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. You do not need a license to carry, in order to carry a firearm, but if you do not have a LTCF, you must carry your firearm OPENLY. No license, gun cannot be concealed. No license, gun out in the OPEN. Yes license, gun concealed or open.

    If you do not have a license to carry, you cannot conceal a weapon. If you do not have a license to carry, you must carry your weapon OPENLY. If you do not have a license to carry, you must carry your firearm & ammunition in separate compartments of your vehicle, while transporting your firearm. If you do not have a license to carry, you cannot carry a weapon into the city of Philadelphia openly or concealed. No license, no gun in Philly, no gun in car.

    If you do have a license to carry, you can carry in a vehicle or Philly, either concealed OR openly. Read the law again. It doesn’t say that you have to have a LTCF in this next part. It says you must be legally allowed to own a firearm.

    LAW: Anyone whom can legally own a firearm in the commonwealth can openly carry, on foot, with the EXCEPTION of court facilities, federal buildings, motor vehicles and cities of the first class (Philadelphia).

    Definition at 3rd grade level for you f-ing retards: The law states anyone whom can legally own a firearm can openly carry. If you can legally own a firearm, you MUST carry it openly, UNLESS you have a LTCF. If you have a LTCF, you can carry a firearm openly or concealed in Philly or in a vehicle.
    That means felons & those who cannot legally own a firearm, may not own a firearm and therefore are not allowed to be in possession of said firearm, whether it be concealed or presented openly.
    If you are allowed to own a firearm in the state of PA, you may carry said firearm openly. This has nothing to do with being licensed to carry a firearm. If you are allowed to own a firearm, you are allowed to carry it openly. EXCEPT in courthouses, federal buildings, motor vehicles & Philadelphia. Nothing about LTCF. Legally allowed to own a gun.

    Got it? Now the next part. This is the part that addresses the LTCF:
    LAW: Those persons possessing a valid License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) are permitted to carry openly (or concealed) while in a VEHICLE and in cities of the first class (Philly).

    Definition at 3rd grade level for you f-ing retards: If you possess a valid license to carry firearms, you are allowed to carry firearms while in a vehicle & while in Philadelphia. You are allowed to carry said firearm openly or concealed. You still can’t carry in a federal building or courthouse.

    If you do not possess a LTCF, you cannot carry openly or concealed in a vehicle or Philly. No LTCF, no carry in Philly, period.

    No LTCF, you MUST carry a firearm OPENLY in all other parts of the state,but still not in Philly, a car, a courthouse or federal building.

    Yes LTCF, you can carry in a car or Philly, openly or concealed, period.

    Please let me know if I need to break this down to a kindergarten level.

  • Valdal

    I appreciate the replies but folks, people just don’t walk around Philadelphia carrying a firearm in a holster without a uniform or a badge on same. That is why the officers freaked out – this was so out of the norm. It was all set up since this guy knew the reaction that was anticipated and just so happened to have an audio recorder on. I agree that no one is above the law. I agree there is good and bad in everything … and everyone. I can only hope that no matter what our jobs are and/or who we are, that we make the right choices. Heck, look to the Catholic Church and see how that’s gone to hell in a hand basket. Good and bad in everything … and everyone.
    The cursing that everyone is so up in arms about – well, I just don’t know where the people making that comment come from. Sadly, there are 5 year olds who repeat what they hear but have no idea what it means (I hope). Take public transportation and you hear it coming from everyone’s mouth, even in front of youngsters, sometimes by their own parents. Heck, I took my dog for a walk recently and walked through a bunch of 13 year olds coming from a middle school and some idiot kid made the mistake of telling me I better get my dog away from him or he would f___ her up (she wasn’t anywhere near him). I let him know that was exactly what I would do to him. For most people, cursing is a way of letting anger out while for others, it is just part of day to day language. Of this, I am not innocent.
    See, I wish the world wasn’t violent and I wish people didn’t shoot other(s) while committing robbery or over a stupid argument or over nothing at all or because the person was “high” and didn’t know what they were doing, especially when a cop is just doing his/her job. This guy had an agenda and if you aren’t from Philadelphia or you just plain hate cops, I can understand your position. Again, I don’t know where you live but the cops in Philadelphia do not have an easy job – people are shot daily; no one knows how to fist fight anymore.
    If a cop questions you, you have to answer and yes, you should be polite and compliant, even if you are doing nothing wrong, because to act any other way is telling the cop that you are defiant and you don’t want to put a cop on the edge unnecessarily. Have I ever been questioned – yes, I have. If there’s nothing to hide, it’s pretty easy to answer questions. Is it fair? When somone is shot every single day, what is? But please understand, this was not harrassment, this was nothing but a setup, clear and simple. What harm was done? When a cop feels they or the public are in harms way, yes, that person must get on their knees and put their hands on their head. It is very sad that anyone is buying into this pre-conceived agenda and setup.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun#disqus_thread

  • Jason

    An RN with attitude <3 you can stab me anytime

    I did find one Officer's comments interesting 'He xxx set us up!' that would seem to be an admission of both knowledge and intent on the part of the PD. I can only hope that aside from any money issues, dry cleaning costs etc, that this ripples through the PD in the form of training folks a little better. The PD job is hard enough without being sent out onto the street unprepared.

  • RJ

    That law that allowed Mark to open carry with his valid concealed carry permit was changed in 1995. How long do you think the police need to get up to speed on the fact it is a citizens right to open carry in Philly?

    My perspective is 16 years should be long enough to clue in pretty much everyone in the Philly PD. Of course we no know that virtually no one in the Philly PD knew the law. That should be the law abiding citizens problem? Or should the Philly PD take full responsibility for their failure to know the law that they’re sworn to uphold?

  • Valdal

    Fox closed and removed over 1,200 comments to their story that was posted. A previous commmenter on this site said & I applaud, “I wish he would have walked down a street in North Philly.” He would have found out real fast what happens to regular folk openly carrying a firearm. Anyone who is commenting negatively on this pre-meditated audio against the police personnel involved must live in “la la” land because they sure don’t know Philly and I don’t care what the law is as to whether or not he could openly carry since no one has a real feel for that on this site either. The fact is that it is not done. You wanna play bad, you die even worse.

  • RJ

    You keep posting that this situation was “premeditated”, was a “setup” etc. How did Mark set anyone up? By lawfully walking down the street? By obeying the law? By knowing the law? Or was it because he suspected that, despite a law in effect for 16 years that made his actions 100% legal, he might get a gun pulled on him, threatened to be shot and arrested? You say you don’t care what the law is. I can see why you agree with the police action here and why I disagree with you. I do care what the law says. I expect the police to care too, and to not only uphold the law, but to obey it as well.
    One more thing, your paragraph long defense of police officers swearing and threatening a citizen who was breaking NO laws. Going on and on about kids or other people swearing is NO defense for the police behavior in this case. Citing other examples of bad behavior does not mitigate the police officer’s behavior.
    If anyone lives in “la la land”, It’s you. If you had any respect for the law, you’d support a citizen behaving lawfully and understand the behavior of the police in Philly, who don’t know or respect a law on the books for 16 years, is to be condemned.

  • Chewbaca

    Hey RJ, you obviously are some kind of “I’ll save the world” type of fucktard, aren’t you. Let me guess, dropped out of college because you wanted to fight for “the cause”…..

    Do us all a favor……start by pulling your head out of your stupid ass. Then, go find a job for the summer, like flipping burgers or pumping gas, where you belong. Also, you should consider finishing your freshman year at whatever community college was soooo unlucky to have you as a student.

    And finally STFU….DUMB ASS

  • RJ

    Thanks Chewey,

    For proving you’ve got nothing but a little “…let me guess…” fantasy in response to anything and everything I said.

    You offer nothing, nada, zip in the way of argument. You just spew crap that your fellow room temp IQ pals take for witty reparte.

    Meanwhile, I’ll post logical opinions and conclusions based on facts. You stick with projecting your own shortcomings in education and employment on those that you’re unequipped to debate.

  • Jason

    RJ,
    This is one of those advanced cases, Beat cops may not know every law, I agree that they should know CC/OC laws but hashing out the details is done after the fact in court, that’s what courts are for, to attempt to clarify the law once things are off the street. We have the advantage of now knowing what the local law says where the boots on the ground did not.

    I’m not sure what this ‘North Philly yo’ attitude is, sounds like a lawless area that needs to be nuked. Post an evac notice in better homes and gardens, give them a month.

  • RJ

    Jason,

    I can almost agree with what you say. The PD should know the law. If the law was change in 1995, it seems like they’ve had a fair amount of time to filter that down to the patrol officers. As I posted previously, even the Lt. in charge of their gun permit section admitted she didn’t know the law and was still distributing material claiming all weapons must be concealed in Philly.

    Then there’s this from another site. I’m not vouching for the truth of the matter, but assuming it’s true, it impacts on this debate. “…I have in hand the Municipal Police Offiecers’ Education & Training Commission materials (Act190) which all PA LEO departments were required to complete in 2009 and it clearly states that the act of open carry in itself does not constitute the need for intervention by the LEO.”

    The fact remains, if people have rights, what good are they if they’re required to give up those rights due to the ineptitude of government officials? Sure, the courts are there to decide, but what if a police officer decided to pull you over in your car, ordered you out at gunpoint and threatened to shoot you? Because it’s illegal to drive a car on city streets (without a valid license). Would you be OK with that, relying on your day in court to have the judge find you not guilty (because you had that valid license).

  • Hans

    Mark F.: I don’t own a gun, and I’m not sure I would be willing to stand up for the right to OC, but I do believe in the 4th Amendment. Thank you, whatever your reasons, for standing up for our rights.

    I agree with the comments that it’s probably wiser to just get on your knees and take it up in court. It’s likely better to live to fight another day than to become a martyr for a principle. The cop was clearly over his head.

    It doesn’t matter whether you’re protesting, or just walking down the street – rights are rights.

    Policing may be a tough job, but that’s no excuse for their behavior. No one promised that it would be easy, and we shouldn’t have to give up our rights to make it that way.

  • Tammy Pon

    Hey RJ, the tampons are in the same aisle as the adult diapers….

    Maybe you and your bitch Mark (“I’m a badass and carry a gun”) should stock up.

    STFU and fight for a real problem in this city, like homeless and hungry people. You are “Marky” are a couple of fucktards with the bark of a german sheppard and the bite of a PUSSY cat! You 2 probably jerkoff at night thinking about Mummia, don’t you??

    What a pair of sissy losers……hahahahaha

  • RJ

    It’s apparent that those who disagree with my position tend to be 12 year old retards with repressed homosexual tendencies. Because even sixth graders with average intelligence could write better rebuttals.

    Chewy and a boy named Tammy prove my point.

  • RJ

    PHILADELPHIA — The city police department has re-educated its officers on the law regarding the open carrying of handguns after an audiotaped altercation between several officers and a man carrying a gun on his hip went viral on YouTube, a spokesman said Monday.

    Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker from suburban Montgomery County, was walking on the street in northeast Philadelphia on Feb. 13 with his handgun exposed on his hip — and an audio recorder in his pocket. A police officer driving by in a cruiser, Sgt. Michael Dougherty, stopped and called out to him, prompting a tense, 40-minute encounter.

    “Do you know you can’t openly carry here in Philadelphia?” Dougherty asks, according to the YouTube clip. Fiorino responds, “Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms. … It’s Directive 137. It’s your own internal directive.”

    After some profanity-laced back-and-forth, other officers responded to Dougherty’s calls for backup. Fiorino was forced to the ground as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to carry his gun openly. He had his permit on him, along with his driver’s license.

    Police found the recorder while searching Fiorino’s pockets. He was eventually released after officers contacted supervisors.

    Gun-owners can carry openly if they have a permit, said Lt. Raymond Evers, a police spokesman.

    “There was some misinformation within the police department that was corrected in regards to open carrying,” said Evers, adding that officers have been made aware of the law at roll call and also re-educated in other ways.

    Several weeks after the altercation, after it was posted on YouTube, Commissioner Charles Ramsey had detectives look into the case, Evers said. On April 21, Evers said, Fiorino was arrested on charges of disorderly conduct and recklessly endangering another person. The confrontation could have led to Fiorino getting shot and officers racing to the scene also could have been injured in an accident, police said.

    On Saturday, several dozen gun-owners turned out at City Hall to protest Fiorino’s arrest.

    Fiorino told the Philadelphia Daily News he plans to sue the city whenever his criminal case is resolved. His attorney, Joseph Valvo, said he thinks the move to file criminal charges against Fiorino was retaliation for posting the recordings on YouTube.

    Fiorino said Monday that he wasn’t trying to lay a trap for police, saying he regularly carries a recorder with him in case he ever has to use his gun and then offer proof of what happened.

    “I absolutely am not trying to set anybody up. I’m simply trying to protect myself,” Fiorino told The Associated Press. “I am not trying to start any trouble. I am not trying to create a situation where somebody is going to be caught doing something wrong.”

    Tasha Jamerson, a spokeswoman for District Attorney Seth Williams, said in a statement that Fiorino became “belligerent and hostile” while officers were trying to investigate a potential crime .

    “Philadelphia police officers on a daily basis are often confronted with extremely dangerous situations involving guns ,” the statement said. “And someone who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon should not only be aware of that, but should also go the extra length to cooperate with law enforcement.”

    Valvo, however, said Fiorino was “very reasonably cooperative” and that his client never did anything to escalate the situation.

    “There is absolutely no reason to believe he was engaged in illegal activity,” Valvo said. “The danger comes from a weapon being drawn. My client never drew a weapon.”

  • Hans

    “but I do believe in the 4th Amendment”

    Uh, yah, I mean the 2nd… What a dork. :-)

  • Tina

    I’m just going to say, if I saw a guy with a weapon on him with no badge, I’m going to assume he’s up to no good. It’s not like you had the license tattooed on your forehead. People just don’t walk around with a gun like it’s no big deal. He probably expected this type of reaction judging by the fact he carries a recorder on him – and he’s probably anti-police force because of his record (although, I don’t know how Jason Borne got the info). I’m glad I checked out Mark’s record though. It discredits him from the fact that he wasn’t “asking for it.”

    He’s no hero. People do this all the time, and it’s really scary how far people will go with a gun pointed at them. I think the cop should be disciplined for not knowing the gun control laws (i don’t really know what they are in philly).

    I’m just saying, a gun gives the wrong impression.

  • LaLa

    I’m with you Tina. I don’t know the law either. But I know what’s scary. And seeing someone walking down the street with a big gun is scary. All these people talking about rights is sooooooo boring. People who do stuff just because it’s their right should be locked up. People should worry more about what kind of impression they make than if what they’re doing is legal.

  • bob c

    as if criminals openly carry
    they stuff in in jacket or pocket

    the Cop will be losing pay for his failure to follow rules!

    YEAH!

  • bob c

    They tell you get on your knees. Get on your knees.

  • Andrew C

    @SGT

    Former Marine here, also did two tours in iraq. Oh yeah and i was banging the hell outta her tell her thanks you moron.

    I get a laugh at you people attacking a person who try to join the military but than got discharged…. Yeah your really tough guys. At least he tried unlike most of you.

    2nd If he’s not breaking the law than who gives two shits. This would be like if cops pulled you guys over just to see if you got a drivers license to drive a car. HEY HE DON’T KNOW!

  • RN

    Thanks Jason!!! You made me laugh!!!! But I wouldn’t stab you without anesthesia. It’s just not right.

  • Marvin

    Thugs with a badge……….they owe this kid BIG TIME!

  • Marvin

    A clean cut white man minding his own business and…………this smells of racisim to me!!

  • Patrick

    The Police in Philadelphia were simply “wrong” and “over reacted” to a “law abiding citizen”. A simple request for his “license” would have ended the matter amicably.

    The Police “have a duty” to enforce the law, not their interpretation of it. To not know the law, and receive a gun and badge, is inexcusable. The officers “superiors” should be reprimanded for “their failure to warn” fellow officers of the law.

    This Citizen deserve, not just an apology, but damages for duress and pain and suffering. If he starts a “donation website” to pursue legal action against the city, I will contribute.

    Philly is a great city but the police treat the town like it is “theirs” to do what they want. They failed to address the “Black Panthers” who blatantly violated the law with “voter intimidation” as has the “Federal Justice Department”.

    The list of abuses goes way back to the Frank Rizzo days and continues with arrogance and disdainful treatment of Citizens going about their business.

    People with badges “choose to wear those badges” and “must be held to a higher standard” than the average Citizen. Audio and video taping “authority and their interaction with the Citizens is a just and necessary practice in order to “preserve a free state”.

  • Henry

    This is obviously a complicated situation. A police officer initiated a seriously life threatening intervention due to his lack of knowledge of local law codes that have been on the books for 16 years. Mark did everything he could to de-escalate the officers attitude and offered repeatedly to show him his license to carry his firearm. The officer acted with no knowledge of the law or even common decency. Mark has clearly studied the law regarding firearms and due to his prior incidents with police decided it would be a good idea to always be recording while carrying. Good idea! Ok. Now we have to look at what point does a law abiding citizen have to eat dirt to comply with a police officer who is clearly out of control and has a lack of knowledge of the law. Is it wise to just comply? Maybe. Is it wrong to stand your ground as Mark did trying to offer proof of his license BEFORE having to grovel on the ground? I don’t know what the LEGAL answer is, but morally I believe he was within his rights to act as he did in a calm and rational manner. I think the law was enacted to PREVENT having to do so. He was the one being threatened by an out of control officer who was legally incorrect at threatening to use lethal force on a citizen who was not in violation of any laws or acting in any way in a threatening manner. I like the analogy offered about being stopped while driving and told to eat dirt even after offering to show the officer your license and registration. There would be an awful outcry from the public if that were done routinely just to see if someone had a license and registration for a car!
    Perhaps Mark could have considered this officer to be psychologically unstable and acting out in a way that was a forcible and substantial threat to his life and liberty. Police are not immune to having psychological issues. That defines a situation where it is legal to take action ie shoot the officer. Note that I am NOT suggesting that. While not a great idea to try to draw your weapon and shoot anyone while you have a weapon pointed at you (especially a police officer!), sometimes it might be your only recourse. Hence the purpose of the second amendment and all the laws that try to interpret the rights associated with it. It is the local law enforcements failure in this case, not Marks. I believe they owe him an apology, monetary damages and terminating the foul mouthed cowboy cop who has no business being in that profession given his attitude and lack of character.
    The last problem that has presented itself is now the prosecution of Mark for disorderly conduct and reckless endangerment. I do believe the DA has it backwards. The officer involved is the one that should be prosecuted for those crimes. While I do believe that being a police officer is a very difficult and dangerous job, I believe that they need to be held to the same (if not higher) standard of justice and repercussion with the legal system.
    I have a concealed carry permit in Florida. The Florida legislature just went through an exercise in trying to make open carry permissible. The end result was negative as to open carry but they did amend the concealed carry law to allow for brief and inadvertent exposure of a weapon as might happen when bending down, reaching up or wind blowing open a shirt without being charged with a crime. Nice. Open carry is a two edged sword. While it may seem like a good idea and might actually may be a deterrent in certain instances, it can lead to all manner of problems with law enforcement and felons interested in taking your weapon from you. You also lose your advantage of surprise. Anyhow that is another whole bucket of worms to debate…

  • ValDal

    I still cannot believe that people who don’t live in Philly that think they have the right to judge the situation. Fact is, there is no mf story here. The cop(s) was doing his mf job. As a life-long Philadelphia resident, PEOPLE DO NOT OPEN CARRY IN PHILA. This mf douchebag knew what would happen (said his mommy lives in Philly), and had his audio turned on BEFORE GETTING OUT OF HIS CAR. Clear mf simple SETUP. And those of you who don’t know about North or West Philly, I dare you to walk their streets and OC – you’ll be dead in 5 minutes or less. This douchebag deliberately picked a part of Philly where the chances of a cop seeing him (oh wait, he waited until he would be visible to a police officer and then he thought he would parade his mf woosy ass shit). He’s lucky he’s alive. And you ignorant assholes who keep preaching the law – are you aware in some states that homosexuality is a crime but no one is arrested for it. An officer MUST protect the citizens – they are not lawyers – they are people who risk their lives day in and day out, sometimes for loves ones of the same pieces of shit that some of you posting on this site are, oh, but that’s right, you don’t live here so you have NO MF CLUE. AS A LONG-TERM PHILLY RESIDENT WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS THE AREAS, IF I SAW SOMEONE CARRYING A GUN IN A HOLSTER WITHOUT UNIFORM OR BADGE, I WOULD BE CALLING 911 IN A HEART BEAT – WHY – NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY – IT MF ISN’T DONE IN ANY PART OF PHILLY. YOU FUCKING OPEN CARRY AND YOU WILL FUCKING DIE. THAT COP SAVED HIS THIS COCKY MF’S ASSHOLE’S LIFE. AND THIS GUY HAS BEEN ARRESTED A NUMBER OF TIMES BEFORE THIS – MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. I CAN PULL UP HIS CASES. HE IS NOTHING BUT A FUCKING LOSER AND TO THOSE OF YOU, AGAIN, WHO DON’T KNOW PHILLY, LET HIM FUCKING OPEN CARRY WHERE YOU LIVE. MAKE SURE YOU POST THAT WITH YOUR RESPONSE. PERIOD. END OF STORY. THOSE OF YOU WHO DON’T KNOW PHILLY, WHO ESPECIALLY DON’T KNOW THE SECTIONS OF PHILLY, WHO THINK COPS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LAWYERS, WHO THINK COPS AREN’T EVER SUPPOSED TO CURSE, WHO DON’T KNOW HOW MANY LAW ENFORCEMET PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LINE OF DUTY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS ALONE, WELL, YOU CAN ALL GO FUCK YOURSELVES ALONG WITH THIS TROUBLE MAKING DOUCHE BAG WHO THINKS HE WILL MONETARILY GAIN FROM THIS. GUESS WHAT FOLKS, HE’S BEING CHARGED AS HE SHOULD BE AND IF HE THINKS HE’S GOING TO PROSPER FROM THIS, YEAH, HE WILL, IN MANY, MANY WAYS, WHILE IN A JAIL CELL, WHERE HE BELONGS.

  • DJ

    Why do all of the people with the weakest arguments, who totally reject the distinction between legal and illegal behavior, who demand that people must fear to exercise their God given rights, why do these people always fill their posts with loads of swearing?

    I seem to recall something about it being associated with a weak mind, but still, it’s a consistent theme in all of the posts that condemn someone for behaving legally and exercising their rights.

    Could it be that they’re all Philly cops? Because we heard on the tape how they talk to a law abiding citizen.

  • Pingback: Anti-antediluvian » Blog Archive » So I’m Walking Down the Street in Philadelphia….

  • Henry

    @val From the way you make it sound I guess anyone who lives or enters Philly is just asking to be killed. Perhaps open carry has it disadvantages. Perhaps this was a set up and this guy was looking for a cop who was not trained properly. Perhaps everything you say about Philly is true. The bottom line is that after listening to THIS particular interaction, it was the cop who was out of order, inadequately trained, wrong on the law, and out of control. It was handled very poorly. If this serves as a training tool for law enforcement then it was a worthwhile mission. If it serves as a means of weeding out a cop who is unprepared psychologically or on his methods or knowledge of the law, then it was worthwhile. I respect law enforcement and the tough job they do, but I have seen a few LEO’s who are not up for the job or have abused their power. It’s up to all of us to make sure these guys (gals) are sent for remedial training or released from their position of awesome responsibility to take up something more suited to their personality or skill set. Being abused by an LEO is akin to rape… I hope it never happens to you!

  • Henry

    @LaLa
    Concealed carry might be a less intrusive way to exercise your rights. But even that sometimes gets noticed. Anyone looking at my pants so closely to be worried about the bulge (on the side, minds out of the gutter!)gets the same response: “It’s my colostomy bag. You wanna see it?” End of story…

  • ValDal

    I continue to note that neither of the top 2 who responded to my last post did not state where they live. Hmm, wonder why? Don’t want him roaming your neighborhood, do you? Want him parading his gun near your children? DJ – swearing doesn’t come from a weak mind but rather a furious individual due to those who refuse to listen to reason. You can come and test my weak mind anytime there buddy. And no, DJ, I am not a Philly cop. I am just a Philly resident who knows and sees for myself what our cops go through. And fuck that shit about cursing. The whole world does it but if a cop does it, they are doing something wrong! Give me a mother fucking break asshole. So when a non-law abiding citizen is cursing out a cop while being arrested, that’s okay, right. Yeah, sure – again – you are an asshole. To Henry – WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT – Being abused by an LEO is akin to rape… I hope it never happens to you! FIRST OF ALL – THIS MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE WAS NOT HURT IN ANY WAY. SECOND OF ALL – THE DAY THAT BEING CURSED AT IS EQUIVALENT TO RAPED WOULD BE A GOOD DAY FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN RAPED ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD. DO YOU NEED ME TO SEND YOU A DICTIONARY OR THE LEGAL WORDING OF WHAT RAPE IS – ANOTHER MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE.
    And so I end my comments here. I have said all that I can. Remember, if you have the balls, post where you are from. If you aren’t from Philly, then just shut the fuck up. Remember DJ, this weak mind will be more than happy to come to your neighborhood and demonstrate just how weak my mind is.

  • ValDal

    Couldn’t help but notice that the responses to my last post do not have the balls to state where they live – um, could that be because you wouldn’t want this douche bag coming to your neighborhood and open carrying a weapon, especially near your children?
    DJ – this “weak” minded indiviudal will be more than happy to meet you and demonstrate just how “weak” my mind is.
    Henry – your remark, “Being abused by an LEO is akin to rape… I hope it never happens to you!” I know a whole lot of people who would like to show you EXACTLY what rape is. We won’t even bring a dictionary, including the legal finesse definition.
    And no, I’m not a cop. I’m a long-term Phlly resident who sees firsthand what cops have to go through, day in and day out and for those of you who think the police personnel did anything wrong – my last words to you are FUCK YOU. But DJ – let me know when you want to see a demonstration of my “weak” mind and Henry – let me know when you want to know, really know, what RAPE is. Fucking assholes.

  • DJ

    Wow, that ValDal chick has some serious anger management issues. If not a Philly cop, I suspect someone in another responsible Philly government position. Sanitation engineer? Wastewater treatment? It’s nice that women are treated as equals in Phlly.

  • ValDal

    Another act of stupidity – assumptions – who said I was a “chick?”

  • DJ

    Sorry ValDal, I thought you were a chick. A black chick, more specifically. You’ve got that kind of angry attitude I’ve seen with black girls.

    I couldn’t help but notice that you characterize “assumptions” as an act of stupidity. That’s funny. Because you make a lot of assumptions in your posts. Guess that means you’re really, really stupid, right?

  • Tes2fy

    I hear about Mark’s incident a short while ago while reading the news.

    I live in the rural mountains of East Tennessee, and thus, do not have a dog in this fight. After reading the comments on this site, I do, however, have some pretty strong opinions.

    I care not whether this incident happened on the streets of Philadelphia or on some farmer’s land – the end result is the same: John Q. Public was minding his own business going about his daily activities when Officer Barney Fife pops in and demands respect. It happens all over this once-great country of ours, and regardless of how often it’s replicated, it’s still wrong.

    I was brought up to act and believe that, in spite of the fact that one may be poor, they don’t have to look like it, and they certainly don’t have to talk like it. Thus, I believe that if one feels very strongly about a subject, whether pro or con, one doesn’t have to resort to using language better suited for a trucker or sailor. And, if the comments in this one story are any indication as to the chosen career of the respondents, then I’d wager that they’re either truckers, sailors, or cops. Seeing as how this is “copblock.org”, then I’d put my money on the latter.

    You’d win more supporters for your cause, regardless of which side of the fence you reside, if you’d leave the profanity out of your dissertation, and just stick with the plain basic facts. 99.999% of the time, I immediately ceased reading a comment when my eyes found the first profane word.

    It’s a very sad day in America when so-called “responsible” adults can’t have a healthy disagreement without having to resort to cursing one another out and calling each other names that are better suited for felines. Shame on the whole lot of you.

  • Tes2fy

    And no, ValDal, “everybody” doesn’t swear. There really are some decent, respectable people remaining in this world who really care what others think about us the moment we open our mouths. Hence, the old cliche’: “Think BEFORE you talk”, or “Better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”.

  • BB

    ValDal. VD of the brain and mouth.

  • Henry

    VD..
    If you read my entire post you would see that I am from Florida. Pretty clear. And my reference to rape was simply meant to apply to being forced to do something against your will under threat. It is obviously not exactly the same as rape but IMHO “akin” to it.

    “The act may be carried out by force, under threat, or with a person who is incapable of valid consent.” Direct from Wikipedia

    People who go off on a rant such as you have demonstrated here need to take a step back and learn how to have a discussion without demeaning the others in the group. I certainly hope that you do not carry any weapons. You are way to volatile to react responsibly.

  • ValDal

    That’s funny. I am black, been a sailor and I am a trucker so sorry I didn’t grow up to marry my cousin and don’t know the difference between being asked to obey the law versus what RAPE is. So you be sure to come on down to Philly anytime. I’ll be ready with protection, you know, in case we want to go shopping. I highly recommend we visit North and West Philly first. Let me know when you can be here.

  • DJ

    I knew it!!! I knew VD was a black chick. Too much rage. Too much anger. A Philly version of Michelle O.

  • Henry Who???

    ValDal, I TOTALLY agree with wat you say, TOTALLY!!!

    Henry, you’ve stated you’re from Florida, so obviously you should STFU!

    If you want to talk “Philly” get your a$$ up here and experience what you THINK you’re talking about….OK??

    Quit talking out of school dummy….enough said!

  • Phill

    It sound like eveyone from Philly is a potty mouth

  • Dave Edmondson

    All of you who have commented against Mark should be required to have a license to post your comments publicly. What do you mean that would violate your first amendment rights?!

  • http://www.credible.blogspot.com Michael Price

    @Ben McManus:
    It’s amazing how much you’re prepared to lie to defend the cops. Nobody is following a “cops always wrong, gun-toters always right” theory, we’re just following the facts. THey pulled a gun on a man they had no reason to believe was committing a crime. That’s a damn felony. As for it being suspicious that he records apparently it’s a good idea. God knows what lies they would have made up if he hadn’t. And yet you claim you want the cops nailed to the wall if they did wrong. How do you sleep at night?

  • http://www.credible.blogspot.com Michael Price

    @Ben McManus No liar, anarchist don’t always claim they’re right, they just notice when they are. The cops are TOTALLY WRONG here, even they admit it since they didn’t charge him with any underlying crime just “resisting”. Resisting what? A totally unnecessary and illegal restraint of another’s freedom. They committed FELONIES liar. As for everyone in prison being an anarchist, bullshit. In fact I bet they’re more often than not authoritarians.

  • http://www.credible.blogspot.com Michael Price

    @Mike, no mike the cops aren’t put in a tough position. They’re put in a position where they see a man who isn’t committing any crime. That’s not a tough position unless they’re morons who don’t know the law. He is not “making himself out to be the victim”, he is the victim. The cops threatened lethal force without a reasonable excuse, that’s a FELONY. Why are you so supportive of criminals, Mike? Are you one yourself?

  • http://www.credible.blogspot.com Michael Price

    @ValDal Who exactly was being “asked to obey the law”? Fiorino already was obeying the law. So you got another thing wrong. Like your claim that anyone who open carries in Philly gets killed. Bullshit. I notice that you’re very ready to make threats against people who haven’t hurt you. Do you carry them out or are you just brave on the internet?

  • me

    I heard at least 3 different LEOs who need to be fired from their jobs. Probably pissed off that they aren’t the only ones with a gun anymore.

  • valdal

    To Michael Price stupid fuck – 1) Mark F. was such a tough guy he open carried in one of the safest neighborhoods in Philly, – he’s nothing but a fucking pussy. 2) Mark F. knew WTF he was doing SINCE I SAY ONCE AGAIN FOR YOU WHO CANNOT HOLD A FACT IN YOUR LITTLE FUCKING PEA BRAIN HEADS – NO ONE BUT LAW ENFORCEMENT OPEN CARRIES IN PHILLY. 3) WANT TO TEST ME OUT MOTHER FUCKER – COME ON DOWN TO PHILLY – SEE YOU DIDN’T HAVE THE BALLS TO POST WHERE YOU ARE FROM EITHER. DON’T KNOW PHILLY – WE CAN MEET UP IN NORTH PHILLY, I KNOW THE BEST STREETS TO MEET YOU ON. STUPID MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE. I GOT THE BALLS, DO YOU?

  • Georgia Cop

    Been a cop for 20 years, and the treatment of the carrier is just scary. Cops dont make laws. Cops are expected to enforce them, and use judgement. Very few criminals are going to open carry. I dont understand the attraction of open carry, I carry concealed at all times. I would rather have the element of surprise. But to say that Mark F should have laid on the ground when ordered is even scarier. He was breaking no laws.
    billmc said it much more elequently than I can.
    It amazes me how many Americans are just to ready to give up their freedoms.

  • Jason

    Georgia, with you on that. Getting a call for ‘person with a gun’ to find five guys with rifles on the roadside. No sense ordering everyone to their knees, swearing etc, legal hunting season? check permits, no big deal.

    valdal;
    I don’t see where MarkF was trying to be ‘the tough guy’ if an officer gives you a legal order, you should comply. If an officer gives you what is clearly not a legal order, you are under no obligation to comply. Officer says go stomp on those duckling chicks, nope, sorry. You’re not separating possibly bad idea from legal. You also seem to associate open carry to wild west gunslinger looking for some notches.

  • Jason

    Henry, Georgia,
    Did you notice when Mark repeatedly said ‘Calm down’ that the officers pitch and tone did back off a little. Its almost as if there was a role reversal here. I think the opening salvo of ‘Hey Junior!’ sets the tone of the interaction to follow.

    Of course ‘Excuse me sir, do you have a permit for that, yes you do, have a nice day’
    Would not have made it to youtube. as it should be.

  • Bob H

    Hi Mark,

    Thank you for fighting the good fight. It does the respective legislatures no good to enact a law, nor does it the courts which clarifie such laws, when law enforcement agencies refuse to respect their actions and decisions. You’re a brave man who is doing an often thankless but necessary job.

    I listened to the tape, and what you were saying was not “arguing” and you treated the officer with utmost respect (far more than he deserved). You offered the officer the opportunity to call in and check the law (hell, you even gave him his department’s ruling# to make it easy) before HE escalated things unnecessarily, but at no point were you doing what any reasonable, prudent man would consider “arguing” or “obstructing justice”. I also noticed that the officer(s) did not respect your rights when you asked for an attorney to be present and continued to harangue you.

    I don’t know whether paying your legal bills will be burdensome for you (it certainly would be for me), but even if you aren’t an NRA member this is just the type of thing that the NRA’s “ILA” law division is there to fight for gun owners’ rights. Don’t overlook the ALCU, either, for support – despite what many people falsely think of them, they are on the side of anyone whose civil rights have been violated (regardless of that person’s politics), and they are not anti-2nd Amendment either; it’s just that so many people brand them as far-left liberal because of some of the cases they take, too few people who think their own cause is a “conservative” issue ask for their help. They do only take cases they think are winnable as their resources are thin, but it wouldn’t hurt to call and talk with them. I called them once on a matter unrelated to this case and that I did not thing would interest them – and was surprised that they were indeed willing to help.

    You need all the friends you can get to help you in this fight, please avail yourself of their help.

  • John

    The citizen was a complete ass. Cops have enough to deal with beyond idiots like this guy. From word 1 he was argumentative and uncooperative. This is exactly why noone should be allowed to carry a gun. Ever.

  • Yahzi

    I am truly shocked at how many commentators here seem to think you should just shut up and do what the man with the gun says. As if power were its own justification.

    But of course they’re not really saying that. What they are saying is, “You’re not one of us, so anything that is done to you is OK.” Look at how many times they repeat the claim: “Nobody open carries in Philly!” As if the social convention were more important than the law.

    This is the kind of authoritarian tribalism that leads to fascism. I mean, really, what was with all those Jews being openly Jewish in Berlin? Nobody is openly Jewish in Berlin! They had it coming, because they were clearly not one of us!

    The American people have been fear-mongered to the point where they are ready to embrace fascism, to lick the iron boot heal of tyranny, just so long as they can have a job and a big-screen TV. These commentators have been beat so much the only joy they can imagine is watching someone else get beat on.

    I would cry, but I just left the country instead.

  • http://GeorgeDonnelly.com George Donnelly

    John, please lead by example and convince the cops to join your leadership by example.

  • Tom K.

    That police officer was wrong in even talking to Mark. I grew up in chicage during the 1968 democratic convention and learn very early about ‘Dont tread on me’.
    The police officer should know the laws of the area he works for. He, like others on this forum, can not understand words when they are combined with other words. It confuses them, and the laws are written in confusing patterns. Lawyer speak is what it is. The early written laws use words like ‘precludes’, instead of excludes. They are synonymous words that lawyers put in to confuse the undereducated. Im refering to a different gun law that addresses the right of an individual to ship a longgun to a buyer. If you call the atf and ask them if you can ship a shotgun to someone in another state, they will tell you no. Because they dont know what preclude means. This is just an example im giving and it has nothing to do with Marks case, but it just brings light to the fact that these police officers should be given the laws to read in plain old english. And in very short phrases, like, the ten commandments were written.
    That police officer should have kept on patrolling and looking for criminals, while he waits for a call to be assigned to. Thats his job. Its also his job to know the law. Instead of him having to call his supervisors to find out that Mark was legally right in openly carrying. Instead He chose an easy target to investigate. He could have found many suspicious people to investigate. But he like many police officers choose to not go after real criminals.
    He also starts out with a demeaning name, ‘junior’. Which is symonymous with ‘little boy’. He was looking for a fight, or someone easy to demean. Why didnt he go to north phillie and jump out of his car and say ‘hey little boy’ come here, to some suspicious looking brothers?
    Mark, even tho you were right, you will never be able to get the lazy ignorant officer to leave you alone unless you go quietly and secretly (concealling) about your way.

    In an insane world, the sane man must appear to be insane. Sometimes.

  • Tom K.

    Valdal, I hope when your reincarnated you get to be someone that gets a great education and gets to live in a nice calm middle class neighborhood where you can live without fear. Maybe youll get to be a lawyer or doctor or even a teacher. And get to see how the majority of people live in this country.
    Your life has made you sound like a loose cannon with a short fuse. Id bet you would end up being one of those people in the L.A. riots, looting and running wild. Like a hutu or watusi. Its just your genes. Its not your fault your just a victim of your environment. YLur the reason they took lead out of gasoline. Lead poisoning will make you do and say things that you normally wouldnt do. This is why the poorer neighborhoods were the oldest neighborhoods and they have the highest lead pollution. If they tested the dirt in those places they would find a lead content so high that if it was a workplace, OSHA wouldnt let you work there.

  • Alaskan oldster

    I’m glad I live in Alaska even in a store that has a problem with the associates carrying knives a Joe Blow can walk in with a gun on his hip and only a recent arrival starts to freak out until he’s set straight by a manager. Anchorage used to have a CCW license required until the state came down on them that if the gun owner is allowed to own and carry inthe state it included ALL the state and no city or burrough could require more.

  • J Smith

    So, cops are more comfortable with a gun they cannot see than a gun they can see?

  • JAHours

    4 points…

    1)I would love for VD to quote the article where ANY Philly cop was shot from an OC high carry canted hip holster with secured retention strap; officer shooting officer doesn’t count as it would just be too damn funny.

    2)When I first moved to the commonwealth I had a problem with ‘hippies’ breaking my nads about the 4 wheel drive Yukon I have. “It should be illegal, it uses too much gas, you should be ashamed.” It was interesting to note that they were also the same people begging me to pull their Prius out of the ditch during last winters storm.

    3) Nobody likes the man with the gun until he shoots the hoodrat kidnapping their daughter.

    4) PA voters unite….lets give Philly to New Jersey where it belongs. Cops are cops cause the FD wouldn’t take em.

  • badass

    All right. I`m just a black dog from n. phila, born and raised and although I am not a lawyer, doctor or teacher as my brother vd was advised to be reincarnated as, here`s what I see going down. mark fiorino has a rap sheet in Phila. so we aren`t talking about a goody two shoes. rather what he has is a beef with the cops here. after his multiple arrests, he previously was tied up for open carrying in Phila. before this most recent incident in which he again wanted to antagonize any cop he could find with recorder armed and set. i don`t know what date he was questioned but if it was feb. 15 or prior, man i can tell you it was cold in phila

  • badass

    All right. I`m just a black dog from n. phila, born and raised and although I am not a lawyer, doctor or teacher as my brother vd was advised to be reincarnated as, here`s what I see going down. mark fiorino has a rap sheet in phila. so we aren`t talking about a goody two shoes. rather what he has is a beef with the cops here. after his multiple arrests, he previously was tied up for open carrying in phila. before this most recent incident in which he again wanted to antagonize any cop he could find with recorder armed and set. i don`t know what date he was questioned but if it was feb. 15 or prior, man i can tell you it was cold in phila. then i read about this diagnosis that got him kicked out of the service and shit man, i wouldn`t want him driving a car, let alone carrying a loaded weapon. the nra folks on here want him to be their champion for bearing arms and that cracks me up because he had his own agenda, not any of yours. i`m all for the right to bear arms and i got plenty of them, all legal, even…

  • NYNurse

    Just wanted to say that there’s an issue with Philly’s policy as to citizens who open carry, as outlined by their own updated open-carry directive, dated 09/22/10.

    The directive admits that people with permits MAY open-carry. However, it directs officers to immediately detain and investigate everyone they see who is openly carrying. This involves seizing the firearm, requiring the permit be produced, and running the permit to ensure that it is valid. They must also ensure that there are no other “offenses or violations to be investigated”. If all checks out, they must return the firearm, and send the law-abiding citizen on his/her way. If there is no permit, or there’s a problem with the permit, “probable cause then exists to arrest the individual.”

    The problem I am having is understanding, if no “probable cause” exists prior to the stop, how the stop is legal and justified in the first place? Seems to me that this policy is directing officers to violate the 4th Amendment rights of American citizens, and that’s a problem.

    I also wanted to say that I understand why people are saying that we should comply with the police; it’s to avoid being shot. Being right isn’t much of a comfort to your loved ones when you’re dead. But to those that choose to stand up for freedom at the risk of personal safety, I, for one, thank you.

    For the rest of you, I offer this: “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” –Ben Franklin

  • badass

    testing

  • badass

    all right. i’m a black dog, not a lawyer, doctor or teacher that vd above was advised to be reincarnated as. i was born and raised in n. phila. and i see people having all sorts of jobs other than those – but that’s probably just the lead i ate as a kid and the poor education i received that doesn’t let me see the majority of USA as being in those top professions. hey, vd, maybe we can get together and fantasize about our reincarnation. is racism alive on this forum, word. first let me state that i legally own guns, lot of them, even got a permit to carry. but man, you carry in phila. and you will get shot before you get 10 feet from where you started. it was news to me that i even could open carry but common sense guides me, not the nra.

  • badass

    see the way i see it is – marky mark wannabe already has a rap sheet in phila. so he had a beef to grind. he had already been stopped in phila. previously for open carry. that’s why this time he came armed with a recorder, looking for a cop to spot him. oh and i don’t know when this altercation with the cops went down, but i can tell you it was downright cold feb. 15 and prior for sure. i remember because the heater in my car ceased to function the week prior. it cracks me up, you nra fanatics choose him to be your champion of the right to bear arms. man, he had his own agenda, nothing to do with yours. the brain disorder he has that got him rejected from the service, I wouldn’t want him driving a car let alone carrying a loaded gun.

  • badass

    but this is just coming out of the thoughts of a black dude so i’m sure you’ll bypass anything i say. i don’t like admitting that n. phila. is a “bad” neighborhood but i accept facts for what they are. i stay to protect my family until i can move on, maybe coming to a neighborhood right by you. vd – they think we’re stupid but we know better. someone wanted you to give details of a cop being shot by someone open carrying – you, me, and anyone from n. phila. and any section of it for that matter knows the deal. and any idiot can research how many phila. cops have been shot in the line of duty – too, too many. shootings every single day. does phila. compare to other large cities with respect to amount of violence and gun shootings, don’t know but can be easily researched. i am glad my father is not alive to hear this story. he was a good man and a good cop. there are a lot of anti-government, pro nra, and GOD knows what else posting on here. if you are from phila. and he walked in my neighborhood, if a thug didn’t kill him first, there would be about a dozen cops taking him down. they would actually be saving his life. i’m proud of where i came from and who i came to be, with common sense built in.

  • Klax

    While i do think cops can be real douche bags, walking around with a gun on your hip is fucking stupid as hell, he was obviously looking for trouble carrying it around like that with a recorder on. You can argue OMG ITS LEGAL LOOK LOOK but if i was a cop and i saw some guy with a gun walking around id bust his ass too. Dude had it coming, and was looking for it.

  • Raven Lee

    http://fishtown.us/node/17482

    “On the heels of fellow board member Viper’s illegal gun confiscation on South Street several weeks ago, the PPD has sent out the following directive change to ALL personnel. It was sent on 9/22/10. The change results from a complaint filed by Viper contesting the stop and confiscation. The previous version of the directive stated open carry was not allowed in Philadelphia, a direct contradiction with STATE LAW.

    Under the threat of a lawsuit, the city and the PPD were forced to change the directive. The text is below for your convenience. Before another “he forged that fax, he played cops and gun nuts at his computer, some furry animal made that up”, or any other Oliver Stone type conspiracy accusation comes up, all you have to do is ask ANY officer about hearing this read at roll call for three straight days, or the fact that the officers had to sign and acknowledge the contents of the message.

    You can also fill out a right to know request and the PPD will have to send you a copy of the directive for free, right to your doorstep.”

  • Juan

    Mark Fiorino,

    Thank you for risking your life to expose egregious ignorance among our public servants. This was a clear case of institutional ineptitude. The police officer pointing a gun at you for legally walking down a sidewalk is a public disgrace, as were the follow up charges against you by his superiors.

    With that street gutter attitude, no doubt the semi-educated police officer’s mother let his stepfathers beat him as a child. He should have started a conversation by calling you “Sir” instead of “Junior”. Worse, even if his parents were pathetic in shaping his demeanor toward fellow humans his employers should have nipped that behavior in the bud a long time ago.

    Any public servant nowadays that behaves inappropriately should have no reason to expect privacy while performing their public duty. If the government is going to film us with speeding and stop light cameras and dashboard cameras why would it not expect quid pro quo –of the people, by the people, for the people? Aren’t we all in this together? The old adage, “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” is now “What happens in Vegas goes on the Internet”.

    Despite his upbringing, if the police officer is any kind of man with a social conscience, he should have called you or written you by now personally apologizing for putting your life in jeopardy, using foul language, and not knowing the limits and responsibilities of his job. A true professional will acknowledge their shortcomings and work like heck to remedy them –part of the 12-step process.

    Did you set them up? Oh yeah. Did that particular officer need to be the scapegoat for public scrutiny in the police department’s failure to understand the laws they are entrusted to enforce? No. You too need to be a man and apologize to him for using him as a tool for getting your point across. He became a police officer so he could legally carry a gun just like you. Nevertheless, I’m afraid you both have more in common than I’d want in my neighborhood.

    I always tell my kids, “Never argue with an idiot. The casual observer can’t tell which one is which.” Without argument everyone here seems to agree: open carry is idiotic –it invites nothing but trouble from both sides of the law.

    You’re fortunate you hadn’t committed Suicide by Cop, which any police organization would rally around as the reason for your death. They have an interest in protecting their employees like family –nepotism being alive an well in most organizations. I grew up during the Rizzo era reading about their antics in The Philadelphia Bulletin. It’s entertaining to see things haven’t changed much –and I don’t live there anymore.

    Now that you’ve won your argument with the man, count your blessings and use your talents for something more important, like reducing the federal debt so we’re not owned by the Chinese. Come spend time at Goldman Sachs and the Department of Treasury, otherwise we’re going to see a spike in DWA (Driving While Asian) traffic tickets as our little yellow friends visit their new properties: Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Statue of Liberty, White House, Capitol Building …

  • Michael Roberts

    Mark was out of line
    . In todays America when a Police Officer is killed almost on a daily bases he is not going to take the chance of being shout. As far as the Officer becoming upset he keeps telling Mark to get down is it so hard to follow directions.
    Once you comply and your identification is confirmed the situation is over. I have seen young men here in Las Vegas at a 7 eleven with guns on their hip and I think this guy must have an ego that is out of control or he is the dumbest person I know. What would it take for someone to hit him in the back of the head and take his weapon.

  • Brianna

    There has been lots of speculation about corrupt cops in the world today; especially, from what I hear, in Philadelphia. This implies speculation of why a recording was made in the first place.To ensure that if a crime was committed via civilians or police, that it’d be recorded and documented. Some may accuse this method to be paranoid but in truth, can save lives or help in defense situations.

    Some states are “Open Carry”. I suggest finding out which states are before purchasing and/or carrying a firearm. If in fact Philadelphia is an “Open Carry” state, then a person carrying a firearm in full view is clearly within their rights; assuming of course that a person isn’t waving their weapon around thus terrorizing civilians or using said weapon to commit crimes. That’s just a given. If all this man did was walk down the street carrying a firearm, then the cop had no right to raise and point his weapon at the him.

    However, that being said, if in fact Philadelphia is not “Open Carry”, then this could be not so good for the young man accused. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, officers are to identify themselves and state the reason for arrest. Law enforcement officials are also required to read the Miranda Rights to the accused. In this recording, I never heard any of this no matter how loud I turn up the volume. The officer could be in trouble for this.

    On the other hand, if the officer had probable cause to stop the young man, it could be overturned. I really hope something is worked out for the better, however that may be.

  • Bill C

    This incident even occurred at all because a Phily PD supervisor and several other responding cops were totally ignorant to Pa law, and to their own internal directive 137.

    Their utterly unprofessional manner is captured on tape for all the world to hear. Of course the Cops don’t like it and now seek to assassinate Mark’s character on this thread, and to also trump up charges against him.

    Phila police chief Ramsay has recently stated that it is perfectly legal to record or photograph a philly cop in the course of performing his duties.

    The cops in this thread that are acting like whining sissy girls need to STFU, learn how to treat the citizens they are theoretically sworn to protect, and do their damn jobs like the professionals they’re supposed to be.

    Any cop that cannot perform his job to minimum standards (cough, cough…Sgt Dougherty) can go get a different job if he doesn’t like it.

    The behavior of the Philly PD and the DA’s office in this entire incident has been thoroughly disgraceful, and is, in fact…par for the course for the corrupt Philly PD and the incompetent Philly DA’s office.

    You make me sick, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

    I am a veteran of the US Military, and i am from a family of cops.

    Justice for Mark, i hope he sues the blue out of the Philly PD, and as terms of the settlement agreement the PPD is forced to rename the 8th District building the “Mark Fiorini memorial station.”

    And the next time one of you blue clad clowns decides to abuse a citizen, remember, there are cameras EVERYWHERE.

  • Bill C

    “Mark was out of line
    . In todays America when a Police Officer is killed almost on a daily bases he is not going to take the chance of being shout. As far as the Officer becoming upset he keeps telling Mark to get down is it so hard to follow directions.
    Once you comply and your identification is confirmed the situation is over. I have seen young men here in Las Vegas at a 7 eleven with guns on their hip and I think this guy must have an ego that is out of control or he is the dumbest person I know. What would it take for someone to hit him in the back of the head and take his weapon.”

    Any cop that thinks his job is too dangerous can quit. There is no constitutional right or responsibility to be a cop. It’s optional- and cops are compensated very handsomely for their risks.

    A cop that is IGNORANT of his own departmental directives has no damn right to order any citizen to his knees, none.

    Don’t like it? Get another job without those sorts of risks.

  • Josh
  • Ben

    It doesn’t seem like he was charged with anything strictly gun related.

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  • Chris

    Complete misuse of authority. Since when dont we have a freedom of speech? Being told to shut the fuck up by 5 police officers at one time doesnt sound free to me. Notice how the cops main point is “I dont know who you are!!” Well if you would have allowed the young man to identify himself instead of immediately drawing your weapon, this whole thing could have been avoided. I hope Sgt Get on Your Knees gets his own time on his knees in the slammer.

  • dude

    Thought this article needed a conclusion for all those wondering. Mr. Fiorino received a $25,000 judgment (too little, IMHO) from the city of brotherly love for violating his rights.

  • Sharon Ostberg

    The thuggery and lack of professionalism of the Philadelphia P.D. is evident in this recording. These jack-booted thugs act more like ‘Wise Guys’ for the Cosa Nostra than uniformed officers. It seems like the only expressions they can manage it all times is “F_ _ k” and “A _ _ h o l e”. They escalated a situation which could have been easily resolved if the first officer, a Sergeant, had LISTENED to Mr. Fiorino about having a CCW Permit and simply reached into Mr. Fiorino’s pocket, retrieved the CCW Permit himself and verified it. It appears Mr. Fiorino was at all times observing the law by even citing the PPD directive (No. 37) which allows him to open carry if he has a CCW Permit. As a result, the Philadelphia P.D. OVERREACTED, conducted themselves as thugs, devoted an unbelievable number of police officers to this non-event, while ignoring other calls for bona fide police emergencies. This and other incidents across the country just show that police are in need of much more training, or should be selected much more carefully. No wonder so many innocent civilians are killed or shot by police departments throughout the USA. BTW, I’m a veteran and a former deputy sheriff.

  • Sharon Ostberg

    That’s not true. More police officers die as a result of motor vehicle accidents, than as a result of gunshot wounds. In the majority of those motor vehicle accidents, officers are killed through their own negligence, often by speeding and not wearing a seatbelt. The third major cause of police line-of-duty deaths are HEART-ATTACKS suffered due to being out of shape. A fourth cause is SUICIDE. In today’s American Police Officers DO NOT GET KILLED OR DIE ON A DAILY BASIS. (Capitals used for emphasis). A total of just over 100 died last year from 1) auto accidents 2) gun shot wounds (sometimes at the hands of fellow officers-’Blue on Blue Shootings’, sometimes by having their own sidearms wrested from them) 3) Heart Attacks Advise: Subscribe to USDoJ, Bureau of Justice, and National Institute of Justice to obtain their publications, or at least subscribe to the civilian Law Officer Magazine. You’ll save yourself a lot of embarrassment through making false, and easily disproven statements. Warren v. District of Columbia (SCOTUS) established that the police do not have a duty to protect the individual, only society as a whole. From the actions of Philadelphia P.D., these guys are apparently construing that to mean that the police have the DUTY to endanger the individual since they have no duty to protect him.