SWAT Raid Elderly Couple Based on Errant Tip

Published On February 17, 2013 | By CopBlock | Articles

Submitted by Dan Sayers

 Pasco SWAT team members on Tuesday broke down the door and searched an older couple’s home for their grandson. They searched for hours for Aaron Vineyard and the guns and stolen goods he allegedly was keeping, but didn’t find him or his loot in the home.

Carl Stark, 71, and his wife Juanita, 73, said they are furious that SWAT members broke into their house at 9808 Sholtz St., and shouted orders at them to get on the ground, breaking several decorations and a window in the process. They said their grandson, Vineyard, 36, lives in a trailer next door at 9812 Sholtz St., and they rarely see or speak to him.

At a news conference on Friday, Pasco Sheriff Chris Nocco said he stands behind his deputies’ actions. Before the Tuesday night SWAT raid, he said, investigators were working with an informant to bring down a 12-man crime ring of which they believe Vineyard is a member. (More here).

I find the following aspects of this occurrence troubling:

  • They made no effort to make contact with anybody.
  • These actions were taken based on a tip from one unsubstantiated source.
  • The Sheriff claims they put safety first when all they did was endanger everybody involved, including the criminals entering uninvited.
  • The Sheriff spoke as if damage to the home where suspect didn’t even live was deserved because police were told that’s where illegal activity took place.

These poor folks’ fourth amendment right to be secure in their home from unreasonable searches were trampled that night. There is nothing reasonable about targeting family members of suspects. SWAT had no business entering without first apprising the owners of the house of the warrant.

These poor folks were victims of a home invasion that they could not defend themselves against. If they had tried, they would have been killed with no consequences befalling their murderers. The perpetrators of this crime were people that stole monies from them under the guise of providing protection. Instead, they turned out to be some of the worst assailants these poor folks may have ever had to deal with.

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  • zon

    Now I wonder what the cop toadies are going to say to justify this.

  • Common Sense

    It doesn’t need to be, violent past, meth users, numerous arrests, stolen guns, jewelry, president of Aryan Brotherhood. Seems they should have played a larger role in mentoring their gang leader grandson…who lives next door.

    Here’s $20 bucks for a new lamp and some wood glue for your dressor drawer.

  • thinkfreeer

    Common Sense (actually neither) I’d like to see an image of the cancelled check after it comes back. Or are you a liar?

  • courtofpublicopinion

    @ senseless your comments are a perfect example of the root cause that has led to the need for citizens to start filming you and fighting back by sharing the info by not backing down by suing for their rights, you come here simply to feed the fires of hate daily, probably practically creaming yourself at the thought that the public will try to rise up and fight so you can go on a “justified” hunting trip feel sorry for you man but hey every man stands alone on that final judgement day

  • john k

    Common sense the stupid asshole cops were involved in 96 calls to that trailer in the past for various problems, and the idiots go and raid grandmas house that is just plain stupidity and no excuse.

  • thinkfreeer

    “I have no regrets in the operation that was performed,” Nocco said. “The fact that we put safety first, we’re not going to apologize for that.”

    Yeah, they would like to think they put OFFICER safety first by endangering everyone else. But even that is not true. They could have simply called or knocked on the door to attempt to discover additional information, a commodity they are severely lacking. There really aren’t many people who just shoot through the door when someone comes knocking. And the rare cases in which that might be done is no justification for SWAT teams serving search warrants.

    The fact that the sheriff will not apologize just makes them more entrenched in their ways and motivates those of willing to defend freedom and liberty to take legal action to curtail such behavior.

    It’s also a great example to refute Obama’s claim in the state of the union address, where he said the police are outgunned. Yeah, right!

    DEFUND THE POLICE

  • Shawn

    FYI, that asshole NOCCO just told me how professional his SWAT assholes are while running for sheriff. Ya, real professional. Newsflash, you aren’t responsible for what your relatives do when they don’t even live in your house.

    “”I have no regrets in the operation that was performed,” Nocco said. “The fact that we put safety first, we’re not going to apologize for that.””
    “Sheriff’s spokesman Doug Tobin said SWAT members’ actions “ensured the safety of all of those inside the house and deputies executing the search warrant.””

    No asshole. You put the safety of officers first. But you did so by jeopardizing the safety of innocents. Whenever you wave guns at people and play Marine, you become the danger.

    @T
    Yet another isolated incident. How many incidents does it take to form a pattern of idiocy?

  • Shawn

    By the way, go to NoCock’s website and you might notice he makes it real easy to tell him how great he is, but makes it clear he doesn’t want criticisms.

    Sad fact is that most people won’t hear about what he did to this couple. This anything goes attitude survives because people are kept in the dark as to what they are actually doing.

  • certain

    Common Sense in NOT a cop. He couldn’t even come close to passing the psych exam.

  • takaru

    Is that the same exam Dorner took several times?

  • certain

    LOL. Excellent point, I stand corrected.

  • http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-milwaukee/jerome-mccollom Jerome

    Wow, I thought this would be another SWAT raid to go after some guy have a little bit of marijuana. I guess this is progress, of a sort.

  • zapeee

    @commonsense – are you accessing private information for your trolling hobby WITH or WITHOUT your bosses knowledge?

  • t.

    Sounds like a good warrant. Makes very logical sense. Certainly would depend on my source of information before I would act on any information I received.

  • Shawn

    @t

    Yes T, everyone knows that it makes perfect sense to raid the grandparents house when he doesn’t even live there. This is the logic of police.
    This is a couple who probably thought cops were great. That the cops protected them. Instead they got abused by cops. Terrorized by cops for nothing.

    I can only hope you get called by your children that they got raided. That little Tommy got shot at because a SWAT coward hallucinated a gun. That your children can no longer feel safe in their own home and their children need counselling because of nightmares of armed thugs aiming guns at them and screaming threats of death. And all for nothing. Maybe then you will get it.

    Are you so without conscience that you don’t care about the harm done? Or are you too stupid to understand the affects this can have? It can only be one or the other. Either you’re stupid or evil to support this. This couple was guilty only of being related to a suspect.

  • Shawn

    @t

    Oh, maybe they can use one of those flashbangs and burn your granddaughter. I assume that wouldn’t bother you at all.

  • Wicked Vet

    Yeah this is kinda like when swat busted in on that one girls house because a tip said Dorner was there and it was just a revenge ploy. The occupant didn’t even know Dorner but they had no problem busting in on her. Typical cops will never admit that they were wrong because they feel they are always justified.

  • BluEyeDevil

    LOL, STUPID MOTHER FUCKERS NOT ONLY GAVE AWAY THE FACT THEY ARE AFTER HIM BUT THEY MORE THAN LIKELY JUST COST THE CITY A CIVIL SUIT BECAUSE OF THEIR FAULTY INTELLIGENCE. WHY ARE THE COPS BEING SO STUPID THESE DAYS? ARE THEY REALLY THIS DUMB? NOW THIS GUY HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET RID OF ANY EVIDENCE AND HAS THE ABILITY TO LET OTHERS KNOW IN THIS CRIMINAL GANG THE POPO IS ON TO THEM. LOL, HOW FUCKING STUPID CAN YOU BE……BECAUSE SOME CRACKHEAD GAVE THEM SOME BAD INFO. ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS STAKE OUT THE PLACE AND VERIFY RESIDENCE THROUGH PUBLIC RECORD……..IT IS CALLED POLICE WORK, LOL AGAIN STUPID MOTHER FUCKERS. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO COPS DOING REAL WORK……..HEY T. COMMON AND ALL YOU OTHER BOOT LICKERS IF ANYTHING YOU GOT TO ADMIT THIS WAS REALLY LAZY GATHERING OF INFORMATION…….!!!!!!!!! AND MORE THAN LIKELY COMPRIMISED ANY CASE THEY HAD BUILT. SHIT IF I WAS MR VINEYARD I WOULD FIRST GET A LAWYER, DISPENSE OF ANY INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE, TELL ALL MY BUDDIES TO LAY LOW, TURN MYSELF IN, LAWYERED UP, FOR ANY QUESTIONS AND LET SEE WHAT THESE PIGS REALLY HAVE……..LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL AGAIN STUPID FUCKING COPS

  • t.

    Depending on what their source of the information was…and what they did to verify that intel…. There will be no payout. Remember, the standard for the warrant is PC. Now I know you guys really have serious problems not only understanding what PC is, but when that level is reached. But if you have a proven reliable source…their statements can be used as part of that PC. And what are the chances that a grandparent might lie to protect the grandchild??? BTW, just be because you didn’t find what you were looking for doesn’t make the warrant invalid. Just saying.

  • Wicked Vet

    Probable cause can be anything. Remember during the Dorner hunt the police shot at 7 innocent people and searched 400 homes without warrants and I am sure that it will be found that the police had every right to do so. The PC for raiding a San Bernardino apartment was a prank call. Good to know our rights can be violated so easily.

  • t.

    Don’t hate the player

  • Chris Mallory

    Since this was not an active shooter or hostage situation, they should have sent two officers in dress uniform, have the officers knock on the door, officers wait until the citizen answers the door. Present warrant, wait until citizen reads warrant. Officers are held responsible for returning home and all possessions to the state in which the officers found them. No dumping of drawers, no cutting of mattresses, pillows or cushions. Any items damaged will be replaced at the officer’s expense. All searches will be filmed with a copy given to the home owner before the officers leave.

    Simple and easy and most importantly it protects the rights of the citizens.

  • Wicked Vet

    Hey typical at least you admit to you it’s all a game.

  • Wicked Vet

    @ Chris that would just be to humane, and probably not as much fun for those like typical cop. Great idea though, if that had happened, no one could say anything bad about it.

  • t.

    Vet: Are you really the fool @flakewood? You write like him. Same stupidity. As evidence…you agreed with Chris. He’s one of the biggest fools going. As further evidence….you think the police are wrong using a SWAT team when serving a warrant looking for stolen guns. And just a little more….you think that serving the warrant the way Chris said would not make the couple mad….but the warrant would still be served.

  • Wicked Vet

    First off I am a her, not a him, and I am the only one of me here. Is it so hard to believe that most people think that LEO’s are high school bully types with a “respect my authority” problem while behaving like they are above the rest of us mere citizens. A LEO never feels bad for acting like thugs and forcing grandparents on the ground as you thrash the house but I am sure if they were your grandparents you would see it differently. Is it there fault that their grandson is a criminal? You do realize informants are criminals that the cops give special priviledge to in exchange for info and yet you all think of them as a legitimate source, lol. I don’t have a problem with them serving the search warrant persay, I have a problem with how they do it. I have a problem with treating people like criminals before you can prove they are criminals. Clearly things you can not understand being that you think you and your gang are above the law.

  • Shawn

    @Vet

    T will never understand there is a big difference between serving a search warrant and terrorizing everyone in the place. And no, I doubt LEOs ever feel bad about it, no matter how much harm is cause. Why? Because they keep doing it with greater frequency and for lesser reasons and less evidence. They don’t care if they traumatize innocent children in an innocent family that did nothing wrong. The cop goes home with his family unharmed.

    I just wish we could subject the cops’ families to this and see if they think it is such a good idea then. I would love to see how T, a professed SWAT, likes his kids going through what he inflicts on others without a second thought.

    At what point did the word of a single drugged up snitch become reliable enough to justify these raids? And would these same cops appreciate their own loved ones receiving the same treatment?

    Cops, including the ones here can not grasp the fact that they should be treating potentially innocent people with dignity and respect. Instead they endanger everyone in the house with their toys and wave guns, knowing that SWAT teams have had negligent discharge incidents, harming innocents. I say negligent instead of accident, because it isn’t an accident when you point guns at people who have not threatened you. It is a choice.

  • Shawn

    @T

    “you think that serving the warrant the way Chris said would not make the couple mad….but the warrant would still be served.”

    But they wouldn’t have been treated as subhuman trash. Big difference between raiding someone and serving a warrant. You act as though these raids have no affect on people. It does.

    When you guys created SWAT, we were told it was for special situations only. It wasn’t supposed to be used this freely because you knew the public would object to such.
    So you slowly started using for lesser reasons until now it is used because a man was SUSPECTED of taking too many fish that morning. The slow poison approach. It’s gotten out of hand.

  • Wicked Vet

    It is sad that seeing a cop doesn’t make people feel safe, it makes them on edge and worried about everyone around them. We pull out video cameras because we know they are less likely to harm someone if they are being filmed and we know that just doing that could get us thrown in a cop car but we risk it because it is better then the alternative.

  • takaru

    Think about the reason these cops are on this site all the time, observe how they talk to everyone here, notice their hostile behavior and general angst. I have not seen one actually show any sadness or concern for any person wronged or traumatized. After a while of reading their comments and replies you start to get a picture of what kind of individual they really are.
    Haters. None of them appears to be the kind of person that took the job to help others, or for that matter to protect anybody except themselves and their own.

  • t.

    Shawn: they were looking for a cache of stolen guns. Not fluffy teddy bears. How much more known potential danger do you want. Guy I realize you don’t like the police….I really don’t care. Not here to be popular with everyone. Quite the opposite. There are lots of folks I want to hate and fear my presence.

  • Wicked Vet

    Yeah typical they were searching for stolen guns at the estranged grandparents house on the word of a drug addict, how much more reliable can one person get. Hey after the LAPD guy had to shoot up the newspaper delivery women because he was afraid of Dorner we all know that you are a bunch of cowards who have to use accessive force to gain the upper hand. Well you have acheived what you want, you are not popular with anyone and everyone either fears or hates your presence. Just so typical.

  • courtofpublicopinion

    @vet the biggest problem with t and common[trash] sense[less] is that the best part of them rolled down their mamas legs they will never be anything except what they are MORALLY BANKRUPT!

  • BluEyeDevil

    T.
    AGREED……LOOKING FOR A CRIMINAL GANG WITH A BUNCH OF GUNS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE POLICE ARE FOR. THESE GANGS ARE THE REASON THAT ILLEGAL GUNS END UP IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHO MURDER AND OTHER WISE USE THE GUN FOR CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR. HAVING SAID THAT, THIS IS EXACTLY WHY YOU USE PROPER AND PROVEN POLICE TACTICS AND INFORMATION GATHERING TO GET THESE BAD GUYS OF THE STREETS AND NOT COMPROMISE THE INVESTIGATION. GRANDMA AND GRANDPA MAY HAVE OR HAVE NOT KNOWN ABOUT THE ILLEGAL ACTIVITY OF THE GRANDSON BUT THEY ARE NOT THE ONES BEING INVESTIGATED OR ARE GUILTY OF ANYTHING WITHOUT PROPER CHARGES BROUGHT AGAINST THEM THROUGH GOOD OLD FASHIONED POLICE WORK WHICH SEEMS TO BE, IN THIS CASE, WERE THE POLICE LACKED.
    AGAIN, CIVIL SUIT COMING, WHETHER THEY WIN OR NOT, IS STILL GOING TO COST THE CITY SORELY MONEY THAT JUST IS NOT AVAILABLE THESE DAYS. BLACK EYE ON THE DEPARTMENT FOR KNOCKING GRANNY TO THE GROUND. WAY TO WIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS. BUT MOST OF ALL, INVESTIGATION COMPROMISED AND ELEMENT OF SURPRISE IS GONE. LOL, STUPID COPS. GOES BACK TO HIRING PRACTICES AND THE LOW LEVEL OF APPLICANTS DUE TO “DIVERSITY”. AHHH…GOT TO LOVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION….
    AS FOR FEARING A COP, LAUGHABLE, WHEN I WAS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN THE BASE AND DETENTION MP’S WERE NOTHING MORE THAN GOFFER BOYS AND BIGGEST BUNCH OF PUSSIES I HAVE EVER SEEN. NEVER LEFT GREEN ZONES. THEY LEFT THAT UP TO THE BIG BOYS, YOU KNOW REAL SOLDIERS. WHEN I GET HOME IT’S THE SAME CRAP WITH YOU COP TURDS. COWARDS HIDING BEHIND A BADGE FOR THE MOST PART. MORE IMPORTANT, WHY DO YOU WANT THE PUBLIC TO “FEAR” YOU. NO WONDER WE SEE YOU AS STAND OFFISH, CORRUPT, AND UNAPPROACHABLE. ITS THAT ATTITUDE RIGHT THERE THAT IS THE REASON NO ONE RESPECTS YOU, LOL. AGAIN YOU DUMB FUCKING COPS DO IT TO YOURSELVES.

  • Shawn

    @t

    “There are lots of folks I want to hate and fear my presence.”

    Which sums up what you are, a thug. You want the fear of people, and not just criminals. You are happy to have innocent people fear you too.

    You are no different from the gangs you hunt. You happily hurt innocent people. You don’t care if it is innocent law abiding people. You don’t care who you hurt. Not innocent children, this old couple for whom the piglets found NOTHING, or people like me who never committed a crime. You think only criminals would have a problem with this.

    Keep it up. This was a couple who probably thought cops were great. Hero’s, etc. You think that is their opinion now?

    You wonder why people rooted for the CA cop killer? Our innocent lives mean nothing to you. Nor do our loved ones. Why should your lives or loved ones mean anything to us?

  • Shawn

    @t

    Did it ever occur to you to wait for someone to leave the house and THEN take them into custody? Then you can serve the warrant without all the toys you long to play with.

  • Shawn

    @takaru

    You’ve got the truth of it. You can’t find a heart for the innocent in any of them. Lots of excuses though.

  • t.

    Shawn: Believe it or not….that is the reason I left my SWAT team. But even then, you don’t know who is still inside.

  • Common Sense

    ..just for the sake of closure, Vineyard, who ‘lived’ next door to his grandparents, was caught 2 dayas later sleeping on a girlfriend’s couch.

    ..additional, the address on Vineyards license, his ‘home addres’ is the grandparents.

    ..as the article stated, “if anyone needs to apologize, its Vineyard,” – for being a theft and doper.

  • Chris Mallory

    t,

    Better a paid government employee face danger than a citizen’s rights or property to be endangered in any way.

    Disarm cops for a safer America.

    All cops lie, all the time.

    Come on t, I have the guts to use my real name to post. Man up and show some balls. Post under your real name.

  • Chris Mallory

    t, just remember, I may hate you, but I will never fear you.

  • t.

    Chris: Bet your neck hurts from looking over your shoulder. And I’m good with that.

  • zapeee

    @common. Its nice to see that you have a few facts to back up your position. Can i have your password so i can access the same database? What’s that you say,? it would be a. crime for.me to go into dmv records? And what case In your workload gives you justification to go in there? You seem pretty level-headed. Admit your crimes and maybe we’ll give you a break. Come on, help yourself out of this jam, I. can’t o anything for you later.

  • Chris Mallory

    t, I only look straight ahead. I don’t have any thing to fear from a person who is of such low ability, defective morals, and inferior IQ that they have to work for the government.

    Come on t, sack up and post under your real name. Or are you too gutless and filled with fear?

    All cops lie, all the time.

    Disarm cops for a safer America.

  • Wicked Vet

    Do you guys really think common and t are cops? From their comments I don’t. I think they wished they were.

  • t.

    Chris: Unfortunately, with the child like email assaults and bombs and the phone messages done the same way….my department nor any of my fellow officers reserve to have to deal withit and the taxpayers whom iI work for don’t need their monies wasted dealing with it. Your own juvenile actions overrule that. I don’t even use a real email address. I use someone else’s.

  • t.

    Vet: I am what I am. But it wouldn’t matter if I was a high school kid. The comments that I make about most of the articles posedt here are spot on and legally sound. Over 17 years of service in multiple roles with just about every type of call you can imagine. I’ve tried many times to explain the relatively simple concepts behind RS, PC and BRD, “qualified immunity”, constitutional rights and the differences between Federal, state and local laws. Not only am I not lying about any of those things…there isn’t even a reason to do so.

  • Wicked Vet

    Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right. Many criminals have diplomatic immunity, can’t be touched but it doesn’t mean they are not at fault for the crimes committed.

    However, on who you are, I find it interesting in some comments you seem to have no issue with your spelling/typing and in others it is really atrocious. Your runaway story though gives you up as a liar in something. Either you are lying about the story, about the size of your town, or about being a cop.

  • Common Ssense

    “diplomatic immunity’ – wow, someone’s been watching too much Lethal Weapon

  • Common Sense

    @zap

    All you have to do is know what key words to search for. There are websites had hold public records (such as filed civil lawsuits) that you can access but you have to pay for that. Reference to this article, what I found was what was reported to the media or by the police.

  • t.

    Vet: whatever dude. The department has just over a thousand guys. Not all are on patrol. There are four 12 hours shifts. The city is broken up into sectors and sectors into beats / zones. My sector if the city…the area I am responsible for…has 8 beats. Currently I only have7 guys. Were there a large scale incident…u its from elsewhere in the city can be pulled iin to assist. But in the normal course of business…the officers in those other sector have their own calls to handle. Not really that hard to understand…and for a “vet” I would think youwould understand areas of control and rresponsibility. Maybe not.

    The runaway incident was just like I said. It not something unusual, strange or special. Its everyday policing. As are the loud parties, alarms, robberies, breakins, shoplifters, barking dogs.

    I find it frighteningly sad that you see no importance in recovering a cache of stolen guns. Areyou that “hard core” and “wicked” that you care not about your fellow man? I think that you have been taken in by the title of the article. The author says “errant tip” and you eat it up and ask for seconds. It is the gapping hole in nearly every cop blocker argument. They lack any proof and rely on emotions only. You are a great example. You think I’m wrong for charging the runaway and her boyfriend for breaking in…but you ignore the rights of the property owner. Yours was an emotion only response. And that’s OK. And even good to an extent. But I don’t have that luxury. I have to keep the property owners rights in mind too. I’ll ask you….which is more important, your “right” to play loud music at night or my “right to live a peaceful life? That is were the police live. Almost every call I go to, someone is going to end up unhappy. Lots of times the best I can hope for is each side being just a little bit unhappy. You and the cop blockers want to focus on such a tiny, tiny amount of what the police do. Mainly because that all they know about. Heck Shawn and Certain as much as admitted that all they know about the police is movies and music. And that isn’t real.

  • t.

    As for the spelling….when its my phone things go well. But my tablet is nutso. My kids use it all the time and the screen has sensitivity issues and the auto correct…doesn’t.

  • Wicked Vet

    DUDE, whatever! Are you a 14 year old surfer girl? Seriously, Doth protest too much. Did you really just attempt to justify that you are a cop to me? Makes me believe your story even less. Did you really think breaking it down makes you sould more like a cop? Do you realize cops aren’t the only ones who know that information, so it would still be easy for you to fake it and stupid for me to buy it.

    No one has recovered a cache of weapons, in none of the articles about this story have they said they recovered weapons. They have merely arrested 3 “persons of interest”.

    I don’t buy the runaway story because no cop looks for a runaway unless she/he has been missing for 24 to 48 hours depending on the city you live in. Especially making phone calls to track her down and then you find her breaking into a house? If anything you found them breaking into the house and try to claim you found a runaway. In my town you aren’t a runaway if you haven’t been missing 12 hours.

    As for noise? Depends if it is past quiet hour. I put up with loud kids all the time and I don’t call the cops, I just deal cause hey that could be my kids one day. Same with dogs and loud neighbors.

    I know more about the cops then movies and music, and I will use that info over your info. Who you trying to convince me or you?

  • t.

    Guy, I care not what you believe. The mere fact that you stand with the “cop blockers” who are mainly just kids who want to legalize drugs (and the proof of that is seen every time a drug story comes up). You can easily researh anything and everything I say. I make up nothing. Again, no reason to.

    And you have revealed your “t.v. learning” with the missing person / runaway info. Adults who intentionally are missing are far, far different from a young girl on a freezing night. Nice compassion there super soldier. Your position kinda makes me sure you were in the military…a total disconnect and insensarivity. I’d expect no less. But in truth…your juvenile approach really makes you sound a lot like a H.A.L.O. gamer. Either way, you express little real life knowledge or experience. Now I’m sure you’ll come back with your some 50 year old retire special OOS, super secret squirrel, sniper strapped to the bottom of a helicopter…some such crap. (BTW…it always amazes me how everyone in the military is always a front line super Rambo…and nobody ever just drives the truck, or fuels the plane, or fixes an engine…very funny).

  • Don

    It’s time citizens stopped roaming the streets alone. It’s time Citizens put a game plan together. It’s time we collectivly protect each individual. It’s time we create codes, hand signs, and tactics to counter there unlawful acts. Instead of walking down the street alone, go with groups of 5 people of 5 groups. Bring cameras, and plastic cuffs as well as any non lethal tool you can use for defence.
    If a confrontation occurs, the gorup that is being confronted becomes the Co-operative group, and the reamining 4 become offensive and defensive groups. You make sure that you use your numbers to your advantage. The coop group acts as decoy while the other groups use tactics to overwhelm/neutralize any threats. Even if we must Detain them for a short amount of time. Do you understand what Im saying guys? No more of this limbo, commenting and do nothing about it. We have to take responsibility for ourselves and eachother. It’s time we put ounr heads together, and brainstorm some ideas, tactics, recruitment, structure, codes, etc Whomever wants to join my new Delta group, email me at [email protected]
    The password is DawnofDefense
    You must include the password somewhere to get a response.

  • Wicked Vet

    You are funny when you get all pissy, you also show a lack of ability to pay attention though. Distract and insult is a great way to change the subject when you are unable to address the issues. I don’t even know why I am getting into this with you because it will clearly be another waste of time.

    I will repeat there has been no weapons recovered. They have only arrested “3 persons of interest”! For all we average citizens know they are lying about it so they can arrest 3 racist.

    I am not heartless one… I am just stating facts that any police officer will tell you. They don’t waste time looking for kids who are late coming home or hanging out with friends, freezing or not. They have better things to do with their time because they are heartless. If they wonder upon her or catch in midst of another call then they will return her home or to jail, depending. But they don’t look for them for 24 hours. Fact.

  • YankeeFan

    (BTW…it always amazes me how everyone in the military is always a front line super Rambo…and nobody ever just drives the truck, or fuels the plane, or fixes an engine…very funny).

    T,

    I was in the military and my code name was Agent Orange. All my assignments were hush hush. In fact, I am so dangerous, I’m certified in all 50 states as a lethal weapon. Actually I was in Military intelligence (please no jokes, unless they are new). I did serve in a frotn line combat in operation desert storm, 2nd Armoured Cavalry Regiment. It was in the front fighting and was interesting to see real live tank battles and artillery firing for effect and attack helicopters laying waste to enemy units, but no rambo moment.

  • t.

    Really. Ask any cop? I had training with about 60 of them today. And out of the hundreds that I really know…and the hundreds more that I work with…all jump on the runaway kid out in the cold. I got really lucky as there was a string to pull on. It took several pulls, but at least there was a place to start Your nonsensical idea that we don’t look for runaways is…well dumb. Maybe you should ask an officer if what I did was right, including charge them for breaking and entering. Bet they agree with me.

  • Wicked Vet

    Say what you want. I know from experience cops policy is 24 hours, they say it isn’t because they are heartless but because they can’t be looking for kids who don’t want to go home when there are “real crimes”. Blah blah blah. I have spoken with some of the parents that they have said that to and it is very heart breaking and scary for the parents. Most times kids return home in 24 hours. So you are either in a very small town or not a cop.

  • t.

    That’s t.v. I’m required within 2 hours to investigated and enter into NCIC. Guess your…whatis it…oh, wrong. Bad t.v. and movies, and then listening to what people post around here. Not generally real.

  • Wicked Vet

    Clearly you don’t watch a lot of tv cops… if we were all going off of tv cops you would save the victims, never hurt the innocent and would find missing kids with ease. So stop following tv and get real as the rest of us are. How old was your runaway off with her boyfriend?

  • t.

    Vet: You are starting to go @Centurion. He could keeps thing tales straight either. Is your knowledge “they don’t loo for them for 24 hours. Fact” as you said on the 21st at 12:52. or is it the “in my town you aren’t a runaway if you have t been missing 12 hours” like you said on the 20th at 910? Either way, that’s some crap you heard on t.v. somewhere as it is t real. But I’ll continue to entertain…she and her boyfriend are both juveniles.

  • Wicked Vet

    Ok so you looked for this girl making phone calls to who knows who to find her location, sure. Even though you justified the cops were not at fault for not looking for three kids, when they were told the location of the children when they were taken by their father who had a restraining order against him because he was violent. Three kids whose mothers said they were in a life threatening emergency. So which is it? Do you look for kids in emergency or not?

  • t.

    No, I did t say that. You know the end now, so you think they should have known the end before it happened. Your clairvoyance is enviable. “Their mother said, their mother said”. In my case there where facts…missing child…freezing temperatures. In that case there were 3 kids with there dad. Horrible out one no doubt. But every person I deal with say their kids are endangered with the other parent be ause they are looking for someone who will charge them with something so that they can get custody. Again, if you like me to babysit everyone in every situation, ok. I’ll just need a bunch more guys.

    I noticed how you didn’t explain you “fact” and the 12 hour difference. Maybe should ask them about the required NCIC entry like I said. 2 hours. Now don’t get me wrong… We don’t drop everything, every time some kid runs away. And “in progress” incidents take precedent and will be responded to first. But as it was, I had some info to go on and got really lucky and found her very quickly. This is directly in tune with the concepts of the cases above. I didn’t have a “special relationship” with this girl. Had an “in progress” incedent happened, and I had gotten pulled away to it instead of looking for her….and heaven forbid her boyfriend raped and hurt her while I’m working on something else…should I then be liable for her injuries? No, the makes zero sense and isn’t a reasonable thought. That’s what the listed case discuss. Had I found her, and decided to leave her there with her boyfriend and something happened….far different out come. That special relationship would have been established. It’s really kind of scary that such a simple concept goes over your head so easily.

  • Wicked Vet

    I get what you are saying but what you don’t get is that aren’t the facts. Most cops won’t look for the girl, they don’t consider her in danger, or maybe they do have more important in progress calls and they just can’t, and you had nothing better to do. Maybe you are a cop, and maybe your not. We will never know. What sucks is as you said those kids were with their dad and most of you think that the restraining order was just an attempt to keep the dad from the kids so they low prioritized the incident. Since there were enough cops to do a shoot out with the dad at the station I am sure there were enough cops to have gone looking for him before the shit hit the fan, but they didn’t buy this woman’s restraining order or the numberous calls of concern that an incident was in progress till it was two late.

    http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/runaway.pdf

    Here is where it will tell you that if the child is older then 13, not in immediate harm, the child must be missing for 24 hours. So maybe it was freezing and you considered that immediate harm. I am sure other cops in your town wouldn’t have wasted time looking for her because in their heads she is at a friends house safe and sound, whether she actually was or not. Then when they heard she froze to death under a bridge they would just say no special relationship was formed, opps.

  • t.

    You link to some hotline / tip sheet and think that’s law? Look up NCIC as I said. 2 hrs. Can’t say it any plainer. The freezing temps do make immediate danger BTW

    As for the restrained order. Way to put words in my mouth. Very cop blocker of you. As I said with the runaway incident. Not cop of the year, everyday work. And so are complaints like the restraining order and child custody disputes. Everyday. “She said” countered by “he said”. Like the runaway incident, I had the time as no serious in progress incidents occurred. Was a Monday night and not too crazy. Everything is an emergency…when it’s you. That’s your view a d so many others view as well. “My rights count most”. Ummm, no. But if I as searching for him and someone broke and raped your mom….and nothing had happened to the kids….you’d be bitching. The end result doesn’t judge everything else.

    As for the still wrong portrayal of the special relationship. If I hadn’t found her and she had frozen to death….there still isnt a special relationship established. In my example… If I had found her and left her there and something happened…I’m clearly at fault for a lot of that. See the difference ? Probable not.

    The example of the guy who committed suicide by standing in the deep cold water until hyothermia set in and he died. What duty did I owe to him? Grown adult who is so set on suicide that he stood in that cold water until it killed him. Still my fault? I should risk my life and use and butt load of force to try and save someone that committed? I except a lot of risk with my job everyday. But I don’t have to just throw my life away over someone intent on hurting themself. I’m sure you think otherwise. And that’s ok. Reasonableness doesn’t seem to be a strong point for you. Glad you chose the military and not police work. One requires reasonableness and one doesn’t.

  • Wicked Vet

    Your safety, your safety, your safety. For someone who whines about people whining about their rights you certainly whine a lot about your safety. If you wanted a safe job you should have worked in a safer job. If you aren’t willing to risk your life what are you doing in a job that requires you at times to risk your life to save others… Oh wait they changed that now a days, cops don’t have to risk there lives if they don’t want to, they can always just bitch they aren’t getting paid enough for the amount of risk they are willing to do. You know harrassing non-threatening criminals, aka citizens you turn into criminals over stupid stuff.
    You are impossible to deal with.

  • t.

    Oh BTW, don’t get me wrong. I would have had of entered her into NCIC within 2 hours. I never had to actually go look for her. And your ideas about 24 hours, while not a rule (so to speak), is a good rule of thumb when it comes to older teens and younger adults. They do frequently intentionally go missing for a day or even several days at a time. But those factors can vary. Taking a vehicle, access to money, even their habits can all come into play. Juveniles are a far different animal. This particular girl had runaway about a week before when I was working, but I didn’t get involved at all in that incident. My response was geared from not only the cold temps but a sense of spiraling bad decisions on her part. Alas I was proven correct as she had stepped up to B&E. My decision to follow up with charges is not only due to the property owners rights, but the entire picture of this girls behavior, hoping to get her on a better track at a young age.

    That was just to clarify and paint the entire picture of that specific event.

  • Wicked Vet

    “I never had to actually go look for her.” Enough said really. You didn’t care about her safety or well being you believed she would be breaking the law from your past knowledge of her and you wanted to arrest her (for the numbers) in hopes of getting her on a better track. Figures. You probably know nothing of this girl, her homelife, and why she is turning into a chronic runaway and willing to break into a house. Figures. But keep attempting to sell that cops are good people business, that you care about the property owners and all that.

  • t.

    You really do have comprehension problems. Legally I didn’t have to. I obviously did. And every officer I know would and does. But legally requitpring that I stop everything and just look for her is what causes you problem. If I am required to drop everything for her, what about the woman and the restraining order? Oh…I’m required to stop everything and do that too. What if I add in the bank robbery when I already have those other 2 mandatory things? And somewhere in there is my court date, can I miss that?

    Your arguments were only tenuous to start with and has fallen apart the deeper it was explored. And that’s OK dude. You, like most people, have a frighteningly lack of knowledge and understanding about what their police officers do, how and why. You, like most cop blockers want to focus on traffic stops and street encounters…because you find those the “juicest” to talk about. In larger cities (and to a smaller effect in smaller towns and even rural county areas) what the officers do varies greatly by where and who they work with. I transferred to an edge of the city sector to be closer to the house. It has a relatively higher residential make up with only a limited area of…for lack of a better descriptor, ghetto type area. We responded to a corralting type of calls and crimes. When I worked in other areas…the types of people I dealt with and the crimes I dealt with where vastly different.

    All I can say is…like every job…when seen from the outside you only have a limited understanding. I may have a superficial understanding how UPS and FEDEX work…but I also know that there is way more to it. Your superficial (and that appears to be giving you a lot of credit) knowledge of police work and police departments is kinda sad for someone who wants to ccriticize and complain.

  • Wicked Vet

    If I am having problems comprehending it is on you. It’s “requitpring” I know you meant requiring. When you say “I never had to actually go look for her.” It means that you found her pretty easy because of your knowledge of her previous bad decisions that she stepped up to B&E. You probably got the call for B&E found her who you weren’t looking for and are trying to make people believe you did some “good cop” work.

    Geesh are you the only guy available on the force? Supercop? If that whole scenario happened I would hope that you knew how to prioritze and use the rest of the officers to do so, but hey maybe you are not one to delegate. Where I live we have an access of unneeded cops, maybe some of ours should go to where you are needed. Here they just sit in parking lots by major streets waiting for people to speed or do something right in front of them that they can ticket for profit. They never look for missing kids unless they fall into their laps for being out past curfew or smoking cigs or B&E.

    Will you stop saying dude. First off I am female and second off your not 14, right? I have moved around a lot, so I get that cops in big cities vs. cops in little towns have different requirements. Remember, I said looking for a missing teen must be in a small town, guess I should have included suburban resident patrol. We focus on the little things you talked about because that is where you profile your stops and harrass people. We go off of the dickish encounters caught on tape. If we saw the bigger ones like how cops handle protestors we bitch about that. We know not all cops are bad, but we know that a lot of the ones we see are. Instead of saying that is a bad cop, you justify bad cop behavior which leads everyone to believe you are a bad cop, or not, you could just be someone who wants to be a cop and can’t pass the test.

    You can say whatever you like to discredit people on this site, but it doesn’t work. I don’t need to know the intricate workings of your department to know that taking the word of a drug addicts is probably not reliable. That cussing and yanking a woman out of her car injuring her because she didn’t show your uniform the “respect it’s owed” and lying about it is wrong. That harrassing people who have had bad experience with cops and try to make sure no one else does is wrong. That profiling people that you think are criminals and wasting their time while you harrass them is wrong.

    It’s like a waitress, you could have a thousand great waitress’ but if one treats you badly, or spits on you well your going to talk about how bad the service was. Does it matter what else happened in her day? No, she gave you bad service so you go a whine on yelp, or facebook, etc. That’s life. If you have a problem with it find a different job. You don’t have to know how UPS works to be pissed off that when you opened the door he tosses a package at you and says here the fuck it is and it’s all broken and tore up, do you?

  • Lakewood_in_Afghanistan

    Vet,

    You are wasting your time with our resident “85s”, but you are absolutely right. After dealing with a few bad cops, I would let one bleed out rather than cross the street to help.

  • t.

    Maybe its memory problems then. I already very clearly explained that I only had 4 guys in my sector to work with. I found her through lots of police work. One person, puts me on to another and so on until I found her. I had a decent idea of where to look then. They had broken into a commercial structure to be together.

    As you my new er having to look for her. Its is exactly what Pete’s article is talking about and why I pointed it out. My requirements in that incident was to enter her as a runaway within 2 hours (still not 12 or 24…t.v. Intel). Butnthats not how thing really work in practice. Every cop I know would have, and has, done exactly what I said. With info to follow up on, you follow up on it as you can…until either there is nothing else or you get called away to something else. I can’t (and didn’t) just stop everything else…just for one person. It turned out that she most likely would have been fine as it was warm inside the structure they had broken into. I had no way of knowing the outcome. It goes right back to Pete’s examples. I can hear you that she complained about her husband and thought he was dangerous. But I can’t know the outcome if that. Infant ignore the rest of the city just for a “she thought” moment. Lots of folks think lots of things. Again…its still a simple concept that is blowing right by you.

    As for “dude”. No offenses, but your continued failure to get such a simple idea….returns me to thinking that you may be some 14 y.o.a. kid who plays H.A.L.O. all day. You can’t even get the UPS reference. I may very well get pissed off because my package didn’t arrive on time….but I don’t sit here and say that I know that there delivery patterns are inefficient and that their trucks and planes are outdated. You, and the cop block experts think that you truly are some kind of experts…but you show time after time that you know next to nothing. And that’s OK. Bitch all you’d like. But when someone points out that the things you thought you knew…that you have completely wrong…why get mad?

    Again, its not really all that hard to figure out. Take off your tainted glasses and see it. You still don’t have to ever like it, but like I told George Sands…at least have intellectual honesty. Youre clearly not a raving fool like say @certain or Flakewood. Don’t just be lead down the paths they follow.

  • Wicked Vet

    I don’t get lead down paths or follow anyones bs, and I am not going to follow yours. As you clearly miss the woman I refer to had a restraining order, your opinion is not needed, the courts believed that he was violent or has previously shown violence and issued a restraining order. Let’s face it, restraining orders are clearly a waste of time piece of paper that cops fail to act on because she could be making it up. I get abused you tell me to get a restraining order, I get a restraining order you say you can’t do anything unless he is breaking into my apartment to kill me, only after he kills me do you all do anything.

    You can say I don’t know how it works, but what I do know is how it shouldn’t work, how it didn’t have to be. I have seen enough good cops to know you don’t have to be a bad cop. I have seen a man jump out of a car and shot a cop and go running. I have seen other cops show up to track down the shooter, find him and put him in cuffs without beating the crap out of him. Those are good cops who don’t have to take their personal anger and vengenance out on others, even if they want to, they restrain themselves because that is the appropriate behavior. I know the difference between right and wrong… good and bad… do you?

  • t.

    Yes. As clearly demonstrated. But still you can’t grasp. Its not that I or anyone else doesn’t believe her….its just, as I asked Pete and many others including you…do you want me to move n with her? Be her personal bodyguard? To do that it means I have to just forgo everyone else. As you say you understand and know, and as I’ve pointed out, in a lucky jurisdiction the best ratio you can hope is 1/1000. And that’s not what’s working g at any given time. That’s based on the total officer in a department. So wanting me to just drop everything and everybody else…to deal with a “not in progress” issue that may happen…and may not…makes no sense. Retraining orders are handed out like candy. Some may be or are a real issue. But even then…how am I supposed figure out which out of the thousands in a large city are the ones I need to watch? And how do i handle that, and everything else? Who should I choseto ignore? And when something happens tto them…will you bitch because I was at the house because someone was worried about the ex-spouse and how I chose her over them? Or do you want to vastly increase the number of officers available….bring in the “police state” of say already exists?

    As for your silly shot about officers restraining themselves. If you want to think that because someone got hurt while they were being arrested is officer out of control..fell free. It’s beyond dumb, but that’s OK. Most arrests (far greater than 90%) take place e with no more “force” than the application of handcuffs. The other 10% is almost entirely folks who don’t want to be arrested and fight. What should I do? Let you go and wait to get you some other day? What if imdont know who you are? And what’s to say on that other day…that you won’t fight or run again? Its the same silly double speak….if I hit you I’m a bully, if you hit me, I’m a whimp. If I bring more than one officer to arrest you I’m scared, if you don’t and something happens, I should have known better. If I fight you with my hands, I’m brutal. If I use a taser instead…I’m still brutal. Double speak.

  • Wicked Vet

    Geesh no matter how I say it or how the report says it you can’t get it can you? She called multiple times, she told the cops where he was, they didn’t even waste the time to go check on it. With a restraining order in place that he was violating. Maybe if they had gone to the place she said he was with the kids things could have ended differently. Not that they would have, but I believe they owed her that much. To send to of the nearest available cops to check it out. It’s not a may or may not happen situation it is a current violation of a restraining order. See you clearly say restraining orders are handed out like candy and as useful as toilet paper, only good to wipe your ass with them. Well stop blowing smoke up victims asses, don’t tell them to get a restraining order, be honest. Tell them get a gun, learn to shot, you are on your own. Ignore the ones that don’t call and check on the ones that do. I want more then they were not at fault, I want to know what justificiation they had to not assist her when she asked for it.

    As for your second part I don’t think that because someone got hurt, the shooter the cops arrested got hurt, but not because of police brutatily but because it happens. I am talking about the hundreds of videos of cops physically asaulting people without cause to. I am talking about groups of cops beating someone down out of a personal they didn’t respect my authority. I am talking about the cases where the force was unnecessary. I see it with my eyes and I know it is wrong. The cop that punches a girl for jaywalking and resisting wasn’t necessary. You can justify it how you want to me it is a prick punching a woman while wearing a costume. You are so ignorant and typical cop, a waste of space. Double talk is all police know, it’s how you justify your pathetic actions. Get a new job, police work wasn’t meant for you.

  • t.

    Restraing orders, while handed out generally without any proof that the party to be restrained powers any threat…are still a useful tool. Kinda like trespass notices and warning tickets. It creates a trail that someone has been put on notice. I guess you just don’t have much experience dealing with people (no offense). People go to court and flat out .if about the ex to get a restraining order. They lie about violation of the order. They specifically set up their ex by asking to meet and then call us because the other party violated. Games after game. Yes, true violations occur everyday. And yes maybe I’m jaded after seeing so much of it. But you may not like it….but calls like hers are common. We “supervise” child exchanges all the time and its constant complainants / countercomplaiants of abuse on the child. Silly stuff like “I dressed him in a jacket and now he’s wearing a sweatshirt” stuff. We get sent on “check on the welfare” calls all the time…one parent who calls in because they cant get the ex on the phone and are sure they have killed the kids and themself. Its usually just “its my day with the kids…and i dont want to talk to her”. And they are right. Domestic related incidents (which this was) can be veey dangerous. But 99% percent of the time its just BS. Most of the calls we get like this is a situation where the dad has a new wife / girlfriend and the ex-wife mom doesnt like it and is trying to then get sole custody, trying tomdeny dad all but just cursory contact with his kids. All positioning for us to take a side and get some magically help by the other party catching a charge. When youmgomto court about custody and the other party has been charged…especially with a charge of a restraining order violation…its pretty strong evidence to most judges (usually the same ones that gave out the restraining order based on nothing in the first place). When I tell you its all the time….its all the time. There are probably an active 1000+ restraining orders in my sector right now. Do I baby sit each one? In your scenerio, if nothing had happened…would you be OK if when I got there…and the kids were fine…that I turn around and arrest her? False report, wasting your taxpayer money? No, I’m sure then I would have been being heavy handed. Double speak.

  • Wicked Vet

    Sounds to me like you have a personal issue with restraining orders. Lets face facts, you are to lazy to read the whole case and all you know about the case is the little synopsis provided here. The father had no right to the kids that day or any other day. She clearly had enough proof against him to grant him only supervised visits. So either way when you got there your job would have been to return the kids to their mother. The problem with cops is one they use their own beliefs to predetermine situations, two they have power issues which have corrupted them, and three they can be extremely vidictive. Sometimes a person can be a good cop and the start but reaches a point where it is time to get a new career, I would say you sound like you are there.

  • t.

    Now you are taking apples / oranges. Maybe you need to speak to your cops buddies again and get some better info. Restraining orders have nothin to do with custody. Custody orders are a civil matter / agreement that I can’t enforce. I can try and reason with folks. But I can’t enforce them without a specific court order or warrant. Figured you would know that…but maybe they don’t go into that on CSI.

  • Wicked Vet

    Figures you talk like this because that is the easy way to address the fact that you insist on talking about a case that you clearly know nothing about. Again, get a new job.

  • t.

    I’m sorry that your lack of real knowledge has let you down. I clearly understand that yours is an emotional based response…and I really mean it when I say that an emotional response is t a bad thing. But emotions can clearly blind, block out reality. I don’t have that luxury. I have very finite resources to deal with an infinite amount of stuff. You need to blame the person who did this. Not someone who wasn’t even involved. People are responsible for their actions. Blaming the government (police in this case) for some else’s actions is dumb. You want police accountability, but want to dismiss that idea and standard for you and your crew. You have achieved true “cop blocker” status. The idea of my rights matter most should be how you start every conversation as that is what you really think.

  • Wicked Vet

    It must be easy going through life with no heart, but I am sure your words would change if the kids that died from incompetant police work were your nephews. You can deny it or excuse it how you want but reading the case you can see the facts. I am only glad that he ended his murderous rampage with the cops as his final victims… oh the irony.

  • thinkfreeer

    Blabbermouth t – 3,922 words so far and no sense. Doesn’t he have some kind of job he should be doing?

  • t.

    I deny orexcuuse nothing. But I live in the real world and have to deal with what is really here…not just with the things that are how I want them to be. Sorry if reality isn’t always pretty.

  • Wicked Vet

    Reality isn’t pretty because we have waste of space bitter thugs being cops to abuse others based on their miserable lives.

  • t.

    So, you have reduced down to just the insult. Sorry your position was one without much merit. Its not that I don’t care. Clearly the opposite. But I still live in the real world, with its beauty and its ugliness.

  • Wicked Vet

    Hey if you resembled that comment it’s on you. My argument has much merit with evicence scattered all over here and youtube, you just have your police issued blinders on. What you don’t get is that no one cares if you care, you have clearly stated your posistion.

    The fact that you fail to see the issue with raiding an elderly couples home based on a drug addicts word as unreasonable and unexcuseable shows the ugliness.

  • t.

    OK. The evidence seems to show otherwise. But…I’m sure more of your “insider cop info” buddies can tell all about it.

  • t.

    OK. The evidence seems to show otherwise. But…I’m sure more of your “insider cop info” buddies can tell all about it. You do realize that you are making that statement…with no independent knowledge what so ever right? You do know that you only bought into what some anonymous person wrote on a cop hater website that is backed up by nothing…right? You do know that?

  • Wicked Vet

    What does the evidence show? Unlike you I actually go to other sources and investigate as much as I can. Despite the department not issuing and apology, they have conceded to paying for damages as well as looking into their procedures at ways they could have allievated the stress on the starks. Did you know that? This isn’t a “cop hater website” this is a hold the cops accountable website. You have no idea on how credible their witness is and them merely stating that they believe the alledged criminal has stored stolen goods there before isn’t proof that they were right. They can say anything they want, they just can’t and won’t prove it.

  • t.

    Well first…..if you think this isn’t a cop hater site you have t read much of it. And it’s ok tht it is, just see it for what it is

    Second: SWAT ops are always looked at, looking to improve things for all involved. BTW, we always make people “whole” if we damage anything (depending on the exact circumstances)

    Last: I’m not claiming their intel was right, although it sounds like it was. Heists it as his address and apparently stays / stayed there frequently. Now grandma and grandpa I’m sure were completely taken in by their angel of a grandchild…but it sounds like the info was pretty good. But YOU are the one buying into the fact that someone who just doesn’t like that this warrant got served decided to post their opinion. Again that ok. But you are still taking it as gospel. You claim the police were wrong using a snitch (who they would at least know) but YOU are far worse…you are buying into a complete unknowns idea.

    I hate to say this, but it’s starting to look like you may want to take the advice I gave GEORGE SANDS. I told her hat with her lack of reasoning skills, she needed to pick lower hanging fruit.

  • Wicked Vet

    Seeing here you go insulting others and showing that you have comprehension problems, two things you like to attack others for alledgedly doing to you.

    For your first: Granted they don’t like bad cops, but besides bad cops who do? I have seen some stories that have to do with good cops, sadly there are just not enough good cops to show.

    Second you can’t say always and then follow it with an exception. You could say most of the times, or often.

    Third, How does their intel sound right to you? The fact that the grandson has never lived there? He lives next door in a trailor. The fact they never found anything they were looking for? The fact they said they have lost connection with him and rarely speak to him? Which probably means they don’t think he is a angel. I don’t buy anything from anyone, but especially not from you. As I have said before I searched several other sources for details on this case. Cops constantly use snitches for info, they are not reliable because they are just rolling over for a lighter sentence themselves. Clearly this should be seen as proof they will say anything and it doesn’t matter. You are far worse because you are a hypocrite who believes that everything cops do are justified, correct and legal.

    The fact that your advice to someone is to tell their “hat” (lol) that they lack reasoning skills and should pick lower hanging fruit is hysterical. You are clearly not a person with good judgement of others and should not give advice to anyone. You have shown numberous times that you are unable to seek information on any of these cases from an outside source and simply attack on what you read here, or the lack of information provided by this one site.

  • t.

    Just to your thrid …think you have bad Intel on that. I’d knot know for sure as this isn’t any where near and its real hard to get a true read on something from so faraway..

    As for snitches: I work drugs and vice for years. Heres the the real secret that people try to hide…..everybody talks. Not just drug user / dealers. But those involved in othercrimes as well (although as a matter of complete disclosure, the reason I know that is the general investigators came to me all the time as almost every person they had either already arrested or where looking to arrest had drug connections….it all goes hand in hand). But you don’t just take what they say with nothing else to go on. Snitches have gone proven for any of theirinfo be usable. (This isn’t talking about annoyomous tips…that’s a different animal). But snitches don’t do their business in monitored. They are closely watched and controlled…otherwise they shouldn’t be working.

    But about the Intel in general. Let’s say this snitch comes to me with info that his is staying atthis house. What can iI do to verifiy? Well, let’s check his record (arrest and departmental contact). What does HE list as his address? Maybe tax info, DMV records. Maybe you check with the city to see if he has any power/ water bills anywhere. Where does he get his mail? Without looking into it (I can’t use my access to things for a personal fishing expedition) I’d bet you that: HE .listed grandmas as his address in every police contact / arrest. Bet that’s where his mail goes, and where HE told DMV he lives. Bet he doesn’t have any power / water bills at the trailer. So, when you look at all of that (and again, I don’t know for sure if this is how it went…just a very experienced guess) and what do you have? You have an informant who say he lives there. You have HIM saying that he lives there. Not a real big jump to figure that he lives there

    (This is about @shawn’s point above) Now keeping all of that in mind, let’s say the police decide to wait and try to pick him up outside the house. What are the police searching for? A cache of stolen guns. You know have the suspect in custody, and he tells you that the guns aren’t there. As you pointed out before….they all lie right? So you still have to go into a house looking for STOLEN GUNS with no idea of who awaits, because again, as you point out, they all lie.

    So what to do, what to do. Looking into your past comments….I’m sure you want to wait and see who goes in and out of the house. Maybe “pick” them up to. How long does that take? How long do you watch just this house? Hours? Days? A week? That brings us back to the discussion and points you couldn’t get above about manpower. This isn’t the only case the detective have. There are other past occurred incidents that they need to work on and more rolling in all the time. And “around the clock” surveillance is manpower intensive and extremely difficult to actually do.

    So, looking at the whole picture, what do you have? You have identified a suspect in the theft of several firearms (a very serious threat to public safety) (and I haven’t seen any info on how / why he was identified as a suspect, maybe another involved party who got caught), an informant telling you the guns are there, and (more than likely) the identified suspect lists his address as grandmas house. Now I don’t know for sure if that’s how it went…but I’d bet I’m pretty close. And all of that should be laid out in the affidavit on the search warrant, and if they did what I laid out…plenty of PC for the warrant.

    Now I know from your earlier comments that you think the police just have endless resources of time and personnel. We don’t. But even if they did wait and snatched up the suspect, grandma and grandpa outside the house….on a search for stolen weapons….the SWAT team should do it every time.

    Now the tactics the team used is a different topic. I left my team because I really disagreed with some (many) of the tactics that the chose to use. I even went so far as to write SWAT out of my warrant plans when I could on my drugs warrants, placing myself at greater risk. Butnformstolen guns? Call them out every time.

  • Wicked Vet

    typical, wish you could fix those computer problems they are a pain. If you bothered to read others sources and really look into this case you would have some answers to all that you listed. Clearly all you want to do is verify that the cops are correct and right everytime. Who cares about the little details you can justify that, right. You say you left swat for a reason, are you to say that you don’t see problems with how they handle their missions that could be fixed by now? Such as they never presented the warrant to the ederly couple till the next day, but what are those little details in the light of cop justification.

  • t.

    About the warrant being presented That the job of the detectives or officer that got the warrant. SWAT just secures the residence and people.

    Clearly, I don’t just give a by to everything any officer does. My point over and over to you is that with all most no information, and no offense, with almost no background understanding in how things work, you just buy the story you are told. Nothing I’ve seen about this case, which admittedly is a superficial look, differs from what I’ve said.

    Now I’ll say that my experience was that I never failed to find what I was looking for on any of the warrants I wrote. But my warrants where always written and served in almost real time with usually less than 30 minutes of delay from knowledge of the crime to service of the warrant. But I was probably really lucky in that. I have searched a butt load of cars where I did t find the dope that I could smell. That doesn’t make those searches illegal or unconstitutional. Trying to use the end result as a way to judge lawfulness of the action isn’t right. That’s like saying a not guilty verdict means it was a false arrest. The 4th amendment talks about Probable Cause. That is the standard. It’s not result driven. It’s not at the Beyond Reasonable Doubt standard.

    As for SWAT review and tactics. There are always after action reviews. Most times it is clear that nothing bad was done. Sometimes it’s looking at movements and other practical things. As for the way people are handled….Should they maybe have been easier with the grandparents. Sure. But think that older folks can’t hurt you is dead wrong. Maybe you’ll remember a situation that just occurred in Alabama. It’s was in all the papers. Deadly dangerous. Again, it’s a matter of real world experience over the make believe world. The real world is much crazier. Dangerous old folks and kids. Cocaine in diapers. Handicapped people sitting on a gun. The truth is always stranger.

    In all of these exchanges with you I’ve really been trying to look at the bigger concepts / ideas of the police and their actions. You have been mainly trying to concentrate on specific variables. Those variables are endless. The concepts, if held too correctly, are where the importance lies, the variables just plug in. Like this case. If the police did what I said, and the warrant was correct (truthful info on affidavit) and the SWAT team didnt go crazy, all of those variables don’t matter really