How To CopBlock A SpeedTrap

August 26, 2011 by Ademo Freeman 22 Comments

Craig, from Pittsburgh CopBlock, recently posted about a video where he and others CopBlocked a speed trap. I took that video and made a shorted one (my cut is above, Pitts-CB is below)

How do you feel about speed traps? Do they really make the road safer or are they only to generate money for the government? If you’re not speeding but get in a wreck should you be held accountable? What alternatives do we have to these ‘problems?’

Ademo Freeman

was born and raised in Wisconsin, traveled the country in a RV dubbed "MARV" and is an advocate of a voluntary society, where force is replaced with voluntary interactions. He's partaken in projects such as, Motorhome Diaries, Liberty on Tour, Free Keene, Free Talk Live and is the Founder of CopBlock.org.
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PSOSGT

How much “revenue” does that department get from 1 speeding ticket?
Dan

Just wondering if these two guys have full time jobs and have any children?
DMT

^^Just wondering, why does it matter? Are you so simple and closed minded that thats the only way you know the judge or measure people?
Pete Eyre

+1 DMT

Dan, I’d hope that those with kids would stand up against the police state so that they don’t inherit a situation that’s even more difficult in which to live free.
Jerith

So are they better if they have 8 kids and 3 jobs? Are you implying that?

Anyways, these guys, even if its is more for amusement, tried something legal as a protest. An annoyance to the folks running the trap. They start just standing around by the action of 1 guy. It provided a smile to me and that little tickle of the “Stick it to the man!” feeling. I think that is part of their goal.
really?

some of the stuff you guys do is good but speed traps? really? they have been around since cars were created.. Shouldn’t speeders endangering the roads be held accountable for making the roads unsafe? How many people die from speeders each year in the US?

and.. btw.. I do have a shirt that says “I do not talk to police, i record them” and am on board with the movement but there are some things that the popo’s do that help the society in general.. lets not forget that part.

YES! get these bad cops outta there.. Enforce that they do not have super rights.. but speeding? looks like you put this in as a filler when you have nothing else to post.

Keep up the fight! (non-sarcastically speaking)

HH
really?

Also, some may compare you to cops by moderating the posts before they go up. Why not just let people speak their minds? you guys stress the 1st amendment in many situations but moderate your own forum’s?

don’t become them.. keep your head high and let people speak what they think without moderation.
Chris

“Dan, I’d hope that those with kids would stand up against the police state so that they don’t inherit a situation that’s even more difficult in which to live free.”

If they are unemployed – I’d rather them be searching for a job and supporting their families than me (the taxpayer) having to do it.
Rob

@ really? It’s our spam filter that allows us to approve for first time posters. If we allowed all 3,000 spam hits of every first time poster to every post …. well you could understand.how that would end up in disaster. We don’t censor, feel free to post as you please now.–Rob
Dan

It’s funny that none of you answered my direct question, you all went into defensive mode, as in your minds closed down and took a defensive stand
Matth

@Dan no we answered it with a “It doesn’t matter.” That’s a fine answer.

@really You are making the assumption that speed=bad when that is not a good causation, and barely a correlation. Most speed limits are set anywhere from 10-20 MPH too low. And studies have show that people drive the speed they are comfortable with, regardless of whether a speed limit is raised or lowered. So what does that allow? More revenue!

Speed limits are supposed to be set by engineering considerations, usually what 85% of motorists are driving on a road. But usually they are set politically, because people THINK cars are going to fast, and complain to their nearest politician. Above 35MPH the damage done is not that much greater than 45 MPH anyway, and further up it matters even less.

So speed limits are a joke, just encourage disrespect for the law (not that is necessarily a bad thing), and don’t really do anything to improve safety. And speed traps are worse- they are usually in an area that’s easy to catch speeders, not in an area that improves safety.

For example, I was just pulled over at midnight with no cars or people around, doing 53 in a 35- in business area that should be at least a 45 (and which I thought was a 45). The road conditions were perfect. How is that improving safety?
Chris Mallory

“How much “revenue” does that department get from 1 speeding ticket?”
They depend on volume. Where I live, they automatically get $135.00 for court costs, plus the fines for speeding and any other violations the cop happened to pile on. Figure most people either pay before court or plead guilty on their first appearance. So, if they ticket 100 people a week, they make at least 13,000.00.
Dan

@Meth

“Dan no we answered it with a “It doesn’t matter.” That’s a fine answer.”

What might not matter to you might matter to me,

“because people THINK cars are going to fast, and complain to their nearest politician.”

Do you have kids?
Matt

@Dan

Do you have kids?

What does that matter? Again, just because the parents FEEL unsafe, doesn’t mean they are.
Chris

@meth

“You are making the assumption that speed=bad when that is not a good causation, and barely a correlation.”

In terms of a crash – more momentum means a more deadly crash. More kinetic energy is transferred between the two cars. Given that momentum is defined as speed times mass – speed does matter. It matters even more so on a head on collision because both cars are going at each other. So really 10 miles per hour is effectively 20 miles per hour. So really, there is absolutely a correlation between speed and danger.

“And studies have show that people drive the speed they are comfortable with, regardless of whether a speed limit is raised or lowered. So what does that allow?”

A human being is human. They make mistakes. And quite honestly, there are a lot of drivers who think they’re just fine when they absolutely suck. Drive along any freeway when its rush hour and notice when everyone stops how many people have to slam on the brakes instead of a gradual slow up. Look at the occasional few that have to go onto the shoulder of the highway to avoid rear-ending the person in front of them. Even if a human were able to know a safe speed how would they be able to determine the condition of the road ahead of them? Water affects how vehicles move in odd ways. Humans also panic. How many people are calm and able to make rational decisions when they start to hyrdroplane or skid on ice? Not enough.

“Speed limits are supposed to be set by engineering considerations, usually what 85% of motorists are driving on a road”

Engineers don’t give a damn about what 85% of motorists do. Engineers take a look at the road and its curvature and the coefficient of kinetic friction between the car and the road under various weather conditions. And they determine a safe speed limit for the street. Sure, there may be some political motivation from people saying cars are going to fast. But the initial speed limit was made my professionals – professionals with university level (or higher) degrees in civil engineering. As an engineer I have a great respect for their decision making. And honestly, any person that’s taken a college level introductory physics course should know that friction varies with speed.

“For example, I was just pulled over at midnight with no cars or people around, doing 53 in a 35- in business area that should be at least a 45 (and which I thought was a 45). The road conditions were perfect.”

It matters because when someone does end up killing themselves on a road I have to pay for it. So do you (assuming you pay taxes). So yeah, I’m fine with you being fined for breaking the law. Would it have killed you to go the speed limit?
Matt

@Chris “In terms of a crash – more momentum means a more deadly crash. More kinetic energy is transferred between the two cars. Given that momentum is defined as speed times mass – speed does matter. It matters even more so on a head on collision because both cars are going at each other. So really 10 miles per hour is effectively 20 miles per hour. So really, there is absolutely a correlation between speed and danger.”

My point is that speed limits themselves have very little impact on how fast people go, and hence very little impact on potential accidents. Other factors weigh much greater than speed.

“A human being is human. They make mistakes. And quite honestly, there are a lot of drivers who think they’re just fine when they absolutely suck. Drive along any freeway when its rush hour and notice when everyone stops how many people have to slam on the brakes instead of a gradual slow up. Look at the occasional few that have to go onto the shoulder of the highway to avoid rear-ending the person in front of them. Even if a human were able to know a safe speed how would they be able to determine the condition of the road ahead of them? Water affects how vehicles move in odd ways. Humans also panic. How many people are calm and able to make rational decisions when they start to hyrdroplane or skid on ice? Not enough.”

This is mostly true, and yet the studies show that the majority still drive at a speed they feel comfortable, and that speed is closely related to the actual safe driving speed. Of course your are going to have outliers, but we already have laws against reckless driving. We don’t need another law that only fills government coffers.

“Engineers don’t give a damn about what 85% of motorists do. Engineers take a look at the road and its curvature and the coefficient of kinetic friction between the car and the road under various weather conditions. And they determine a safe speed limit for the street. Sure, there may be some political motivation from people saying cars are going to fast. But the initial speed limit was made my professionals – professionals with university level (or higher) degrees in civil engineering. As an engineer I have a great respect for their decision making. And honestly, any person that’s taken a college level introductory physics course should know that friction varies with speed.”

Actually engineers DO give a damn about what 85% of the motorists do- as that has been proven to be the safe upper limit. Some states even have laws that specify that speed limits must use that as a basis for setting the limits.

Speed limits are supposed to be that- upper limits on the fastest that cars must drive and be safe. Many are NOT that, cars can go much faster than most speed limits and still be safe. Its way you see people going 65 in a 55 on many highways.

“It matters because when someone does end up killing themselves on a road I have to pay for it. So do you (assuming you pay taxes). So yeah, I’m fine with you being fined for breaking the law. Would it have killed you to go the speed limit?”

Well, that’s an entirely different question. Taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for it. If someone kills themselves, their estate should pay for it.

And regardless, its a side question that’s not relevant. Why should I go the limit when I KNOW I’m safe at the speed I’m traveling? If I went 35 I still would have a similar chance of being killed, since there was nothing else on the road. I even feel I have a duty to break the law, because I know its wrong.
Chris

@Matt

“”A human being is human. They make mistakes. And quite honestly, there are a lot of drivers who think they’re just fine when they absolutely suck. Drive along any freeway when its rush hour and notice when everyone stops how many people have to slam on the brakes instead of a gradual slow up. Look at the occasional few that have to go onto the shoulder of the highway to avoid rear-ending the person in front of them. Even if a human were able to know a safe speed how would they be able to determine the condition of the road ahead of them? Water affects how vehicles move in odd ways. Humans also panic. How many people are calm and able to make rational decisions when they start to hydroplane or skid on ice? Not enough.”

This is mostly true, and yet the studies show that the majority still drive at a speed they feel comfortable …”

But if those drivers suck how can they adequately judge as to what is safe on the road they are traveling on?

All of us who live in Wisconsin, or any state with snow, have seen drivers going too fast and cause accidents because they did not take into account the way that the weather affects the way their car handles. There are those who still clearly drive too fast and someday will cause an accident if they continue to go that speed. And they aren’t usually going over the speed limit. How can you make the argument that people can make adequate judgments about how speed is safe when these accidents occur? Clearly they’re unable to take weather conditions into account – and weather makes a huge difference on the way a car handles, especially at higher speeds. What about black ice? If a driver encounters that, the slower they are going, the less likely an accident is to occur.

When I was in high school a girl misjudged the snow on the ground and hit my car in the parking lot because she was unable to stop in time. She was traveling the speed limit of that parking lot – 5 miles per hour. And she felt comfortable doing so. But it still cost us both in terms of our insurance rates going up.

As for those state laws about 85% of motorists, can I see a source? If you show me a legitimate source for that I’ll admit I’m wrong. Until then, I hope the engineers use the math.

http://seriousaccidents.com/legal-advice/top-causes-of-car-accidents/speeding/
Chris Mallory

Here you go Chris, a story in Car and Driver about the Michigan law mandating the 85% standard.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q2/feeding_the_machine_sandbagging_on_speed_limits-feature

Here is a model law from the National Motorist’s Assoc.

http://www.motorists.org/speed-limits/model-law

Here is a line from the FHWA PDF on road engineering.
Scroll down to chapter 6, mid way down the page.
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speedmgt/ref_mats/fhwasa10001/#c4.1

“The 85th percentile speed is used extensively in the field of traffic engineering and safety. Since the majority of drivers are considered reasonable and should be accommodated, some numerical definition for this segment of the driver population is needed. Over time, the 85th percentile driver (or speed) has been used to characterize reasonable and prudent behavior.”
Jim

I wish I had the time to locate speed traps and really get the attention of local law enforcement. Unfortunately I have a full time job, a mortgage, children, bills to pay. Clearly you folks out there do not. Let me guess….college age sucking off mommy and daddy’s money to run around the country smoking pot and harassing law enforcement all the while proclaiming that it’s about liberty and free speech etc. You may want to do some research and learn that the founding fathers were reallyvabout taxation without representation and the ability for local government to govern themselves, but not being tax payers yourself (clearly you are not) you really don’t have much of a say as to what the cops should and should not be doing. Way to go future generations of Americans. Make us all proud.
Matt

Jim- what a horrible argument. Instead debating the merits, you calls us names and insinuate who we are.

We come from all walks of live, and all ages. I’m in my thirties with a full time job and bills to pay. No kids yet though. And yes, I’m a tax payer. So you don’t even have your facts right about your specious argument.

I know what the Founding Fathers were about- liberty and justice. They weren’t perfect though, and other people have furthered the theory of liberty and justice.

And regardless of whether I’m a taxpayer, as an united States Citizen, I have every right, and in fact at DUTY, to question what the cops should and should be doing.

Maybe you should do some research.
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Ademo Freeman

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